CNC Plans not Included

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by jorgepease, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    From what I could tell its very slightly heavier to the point it could almost be ignored, but a decent margin stiffer (well behind carbon though). With favorable aspects in wetting out, impact resistance, heat resistance etc. So I thought it was much better than E glass. Its properties are similar to S glass. But costs less than S glass even now when there is hardly any use of it yet. Seems if it took off it could be much cheaper.

    There is a table in the link below and you can arrange by properties by hitting the arrow. It appears its less than 2% denser than E glass, but 25 to 30% stiffer with many other properties being much better too. So if the cost was right it might be worth looking into to replace the regular E glass. Where carbon is needed you would still use carbon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalt_fiber

    Groper, I like your idea on your ideal sailing cat. Much like what I want to do one day. I am starting to do a design concept already. I like the Sig 45 or Grainger Flying Fish idea. But with a hardtop and roll down sides. I call what I want a semi open bridge deck design. A bit like the Maine cat 41. http://www.mecat.com/boats/maine-cat-41

    This suits me and my planned tropical cruising which I have a lot of experience doing, as do you probably. Bridge decks are really hot in the tropics. Me and my crew do a lot of water sports like diving etc. So having the hulls as dry areas and the semi enclosed bridge deck a wet area suits fine. It will have a large area for chilling out in the shade with breeze. Shade and protection is still a must though. No way do I want to be in the sun.

    The idea would be it it could be built in a modular way in my existing 6 x 12 x 3m shed (I just finished the shed, its as big as they would let me build!). A bridgedeck cat can not be built in this space, but a modular 14.9M cat can be (I have loads of room to poke out the end). 14.9m sounds big, but it will have a lot of nothing in skinny ends for a good displacement to length ratio and small rig for a boat this long. Accommodations of a Maine Cat 41 will be loads. Everything will be minimalist.

    I thought you might like my concept as it seemed to be kind of what you were referring to you might want. Not sure on the build method, but I like your idea of infusing my own flat panel kit in one go.
     
  2. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    Sorry for the hijack Jorge! Good to see you contacted Grainger. He is one of my favorite designers. I prefer his designs over Schionning anyway. Which design did you have him modify?

    His Flying Fish 11 looks much like what I want, but stretched like what you want. I'm talking 40 foot accommodation in a 50 footer. The hulls wont cost that much more to build and wont make it much heavier if left empty, so the rig need not be as big as a regular 50 footer. I wont be in marina's and don't care about fees. I care about performance potential and sea kindliness which gets better with LOA. Seems we are on the same page here too.
     
  3. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Exactly - I like the FlyingFish 45 with the open cockpit and hulls stretched to 50 or 55 and if possible with same rig. I am not going to be racing her and not going to be storing her in Marinas either. I want lots of deck space and hard bimini, shade is a biggie for me. I along with a friend are going to combine buying power to negotiate very low material prices. Actually he has already established the contacts to do so, it would cut about 50% on foam, glass and fiber.

    I can't do anything till I sell my vacation home which probably won't be till after March. If your interested in joining us, we are going to sort out the paper work, locations and all legalities to help others come and build in Croatia.

    The FF 45 stretched 5' at the bow and 5' at the stern to keep mast centered.
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Looks like we're all on the same page more or less... one thing I didn't like about graingers FF design was the cockpit layout. I thought it was cluttered and a lot more complicated to build. Why not leave it all clean like the sig45 cockpits/helm etc?
     
  5. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    I posted a drawing a few pages back. I have the aft berths shifted off to the side of the hull which requires raising the deck, that could be a lounge area. Otherwise I see it as completely open area and with an extra 5 feet length in the back, that is really luxurious.
     
  6. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    There is not much on Graingers site about what it looks like in the cockpit. I would like it to be more like a MC41 with ample seating etc. A gigantic flat board like the sig 45 is not going to be as nice for hanging out. I recently came back from the BVI where mates captain Voyage cats. I like the central helm position with all lines leading to it on the day charter boats.

    Your plan is perfect. Right now I am in a spot of personal trouble starting with divorce and loosing my beautiful BOAT, ending in 2 broken legs after crashing my paraglider and now having no job. I know I will be bounce back, but I am not willing to sell my house to build a boat so prob wont be able to join you in the near future in Croatia, but had I the coin, I would jump at the chance.

    However, my good friend has the money and I may be able to convince him as he is getting ready to buy/build.
     
  7. UpOnStands
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    UpOnStands Senior Member

    rudders?

    for jorgepease
    with your long aft extension you have a lot of room.
    Sticking with the conventional rudder or going with the rudder in a barrel?
    Would be nice to be able to beach the cat safely, clear nets and ropes from above, and adjust the amount of rudder area to suit the circumstances.
     
  8. waikikin
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    waikikin Senior Member

    Things have to start looking up from this point..

    All the best wishes in your recovery.
    Jeff.
     
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  9. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    I also require seating, the different layouts shouldn’t affect structural so everyone could adjust as desired. Sorry to hear about your run with bad luck, that’s a tough bullet to bite. The plan is to create a boat builders club (I have to start a business to get my residency) so it will hopefully still be around. when you are ready again. Yes mention it to your friend.

    I definitely want to go with an adjustable height ,kickup, rudder. The flying fish light version only has 19” draft, I want to take advantage of that. Drives will be side mounted as well so they don’t extend below hull. I would even like the daggerboards to be pivoting if possible.

    I don't know if this exists but I would like to have the tiller handles removable and also have a center more protected helm for those days when it's stormy. Grainger suggests hydraulic has come a long way and is not a bad option. It wouldn't add that much cost, it will be better protected and I think it can be used aesthetically to design the layout around. Everyone can do their own design though.

    Groper mentioned that homebuilt boats don't have much value beyond cost of materials. Would be good to identify why and set this club up to remedy that. Is it warranty, is it lack of controls, inspections ... it could be a fairly simple tweak to change that around and make our home built vessels worth as much or more than production versions.
     
  10. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    Not home built, but rather home designed is the problem with resale... you need a reputable designer so that people have that yardstick to value it off. Its all about reputation and such like it seems...

    Theres plenty of seating on the sig45 - 2 big bench seats per side and note the wind break @ the forward one with fold out table;
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then you would have lots of foldaway chairs and another fold away table to use under the boom tent / bimini when at anchor with guests on board :D
     
  11. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    Its nice, but its all in the sun and looks difficult to design shade over. IMO shade and protection has to be addressed in the design stage. I cant see a an obvious nice solution to have shade on the benches near the tiller. I think you will be over the boom tent idea pretty quick. I have done it and it sucks. I guess it depends on how much performance you really want. After blowing everyone away at the races the extra performance while cruising in the sun probably wont seem worth it, as will staying in the hulls whenever it rains. A hard top and plastic MC41 style suits my personal compromise. But the ideas are pretty close.

    Agreed on the resale by using a reputable designer. But designing and building your own must have been rewarding! Its might be out of your system but not mine :p
     
  12. DennisRB
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    DennisRB Senior Member

    Groper and I live in an area where we would have lead in your heads to not want the shallowest draft possible when designing our own dream boats. But when I sailed the South Pacific, draft hardly mattered. Back home it changes everything, and many other areas are better cruised with shallow draft. Kick up rudders also save on mechanical damage say you hit a container. So I would suggest them over drums or other dagger style setups. I would be interested to see different designs for daggerboards capable of taking a grounding. Obviously the pivoting centerboard is the obvious choice here, but the drag of the slot and space of the housing is an issue.

    I hate saildrives. Never again I say. But angled to the side could be OK. When my mates sailed the M&M 63 footer Gizmo into Brisbane I saw it on the hard. It had diesel shaft drives with the shafts angled outward. The best possible inboard arrangement IMO.

    With electric motors, the size of the motor would mean perhaps a shaft install may not be as bulky as a diesel. I like outboards. Nothing like lifting them to shallow drive and motoring up until the hull bottoms are softly beached on sand Bob Oram style. My mates 45 foot Oram full bridgedeck sailing cat can do 11k I think he said with 2 x 20hp Tohatsus.
     
  13. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    I have confirmed the part about different designers bringing different prices. I think recording some organization and having processes will also go a long way to ensure your 400K-500K investment starts devaluing from around say 1MM or more depending how nice you built it.

    My build will be CE certified and under a company name without a doubt.

    Grainger offers the hardtop design otherwise open to the bow and stern, I know that I would be spending 90% of my time in the shade! Seating arrangements are easy to modify though and having regular furniture - lounges, chairs and tables that fold away is kind of appealing to me too but the raised sections I drew are fixed because I want to enter the bunk from the side and I don't want it to be feel claustrophobic.

    In the pic of the tiller, it would be nice if that was a quick detach system leaving nothing to stub the toe on.
     
  14. jorgepease
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    jorgepease Senior Member

    Shallow draft for me is a must, I love to explore, so angled drives or even a shaft out the side is a must. I haven't totally ruled out an outboard setup would be a bit cheaper but I really like torqeedo's Total-Boat engineered hybrid system.

    If you are going with electric for everything else then the cost disparity of outboards vs electric drives is not as great. Probably only around a 20K difference.
     

  15. groper
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    groper Senior Member

    I agree shade is a must! I'm not suggesting the sig setup is perfect as they have it and I would definitely modify it to include more shade and protection from rain whilst underway- I posted the photos to show the seating and uncluttered area etc. I like the padding on the rear trampoline which they use as day beds... why sit when you can lay down :D

    Graingers idea of the hard Bimini with boom track for main sail end plate effect might be worth looking into further...

    One thing to remember is that windage has major influence on the boats upwind ability. If your tacking upwind and you have boat speed of 8 kts then your VMG is about 3 kts. So many catamarans with bridgedeck house can't make even that so they end up motor sailing to improve their vmg. If the boat doesn't sail extremely well on all points, then it's not worth doing IMHO... keeping windage under control is very important if you ever want to sail upwind and make any significant progress...
     
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