Cloth on Cloth

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by titan22, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. titan22
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Porter Texas

    titan22 Junior Member

    In building a boat in a mold, can you laminate cloth on cloth or do you need to apply a layer of mat between them. I examined an Allison and found no signs of anything but cloth under the deck.
    Thanks, Tim
     
  2. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
    Posts: 10,401
    Likes: 1,035, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 702
    Location: Australia

    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Depends exactly what the reinforcement is, unidirectional can be laid up without chop in between, but generally if it is woven material, no, I think it might delaminate too easily..
     
  3. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 2,863
    Likes: 518, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 506
    Location: Monroe WA

    ondarvr Senior Member

    What type of resin are you planning to use? With epoxy you don't need mat between the layers. With polyester you need to use mat between each layer of woven or stitched fabric, but use some other type of fabric instead of cloth. Cloth is very expensive compared to other woven or stitched fabrics and since you need to use mat between each layer, you end up with a great deal of glass and resin that isn't adding much strength, this results in a heavy weak laminate.
     
  4. Mr Efficiency
    Joined: Oct 2010
    Posts: 10,401
    Likes: 1,035, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 702
    Location: Australia

    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Don't think he is using epoxy to laminate a hull, I assumed poly or vinyl ester, when you say stitched, are you including unidirectional rovings ?
     
  5. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 2,863
    Likes: 518, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 506
    Location: Monroe WA

    ondarvr Senior Member

    It really depends on what he calls cloth, some people use the term cloth when referring to all types of glass other than mat (actually some include mat too).

    Any stitched or woven product should have a layer of mat between them, without it there is more of a chance of interlaminte shear, at least in hand lamination.
     
  6. jim lee
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 368
    Likes: 20, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 247
    Location: Anacortes, WA

    jim lee Senior Member

    You're scaring me ondarvr. Your glass supplier, forgot the name, told us you don't need mat between layers when infusing.

    -jim lee
     
  7. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,900
    Likes: 199, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    Mine told me it wasn't needed when doing a wet on wet hand lay-up, or multiple layers at one time. I never tried it though.
     
  8. titan22
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Porter Texas

    titan22 Junior Member

    I would be using vinyl ester and the cloth looks like standard mat you would get from Home Depot or just local suppliers. I am wanting to get into infusion, will it work with that laminating process?
     
  9. titan22
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Porter Texas

    titan22 Junior Member

    Correction, standard cloth.
     
  10. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 494, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    In order to solve these terminology issues, what does the package of fabric say Titan? I mention this because
    Mat doesn't look like cloth. Again what does the package call it's contents, or better yet a photo of the material you're calling regular cloth that looks like mat.
     
  11. AndrewK
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 482
    Likes: 41, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 344
    Location: Australia

    AndrewK Senior Member

    With VE resin you do not require csm between stitched or woven cloth for open lamination.
    Once you start increasing the fiber fraction by vacuum consolidation the requirement for stronger resin goes up. But as most of us will still be using the same resins using a combination cloth, stitched UD with a thin csm layer (more resin rich inter layer) is a good idea.

    Even with epoxy resin you can see the increased need for stronger resin with infused laminates as compared to open laminates. This is evident when you cut these laminates with a jig saw, the infused laminate will fracture more than the open laminate.

    As infusion is becoming more common and I notice some still use polyester resin for this I wonder if it is a step in the right direction?
     
  12. titan22
    Joined: Nov 2010
    Posts: 9
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Porter Texas

    titan22 Junior Member

    Thanks all for your in put. Tim
     
  13. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 2,863
    Likes: 518, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 506
    Location: Monroe WA

    ondarvr Senior Member

    In hand lamination you should to use mat between each layer, even with VE, but its not uncommon in some market segments to use multiple woven or stitched products back to back. Its not the best method, but it works for them.

    In hand lamination the loft of the glass will create a resin rich layer between each woven or stitched fabric, this resin rich layer is weak and can fracture when stressed. Mat fills in this resin rich layer with at least some glass which can make a big difference in how well the laminate holds up to stress.

    With infusion the glass is compacted and this helps to eliminate the resin rich layer between each fabric, which increases the strength and lessons the need for mat.
     
  14. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 2,625
    Likes: 502, Points: 113, Legacy Rep: 1110
    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    It depends on the resin you are using and the time interval between each layer.

    You can laminate cloth on cloth if the time between layers is such that the preceeding lamination is still tacky and has not cured otherwise a layer of chopped strand mat is to be used in between layers.

    This applies only to Poly and VE but not for Epoxy resin. Epoxy has better resin to resin adhesion so a tie coat is not necessary.

    If you are infusing, cloth to cloth, biax to biax, uni to uni is acceptable since you are practically laminating in one go.
     

  15. jim lee
    Joined: Feb 2007
    Posts: 368
    Likes: 20, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 247
    Location: Anacortes, WA

    jim lee Senior Member

    Naw, we're infusing biax to biax using VE. ondarvr's been to our shop a couple times and knows all about our process.

    -jim lee
     
Loading...
Similar Threads
  1. massandspace
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    452
  2. mrdebian
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    731
  3. tpenfield
    Replies:
    16
    Views:
    7,050
  4. schakalen
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,463
  5. BrettinVA
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    2,008
  6. massnspace
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,859
  7. JEFFHEENAN
    Replies:
    13
    Views:
    7,663
  8. Jim Caldwell
    Replies:
    14
    Views:
    7,394
  9. WilliamPrince
    Replies:
    9
    Views:
    2,296
  10. petethai
    Replies:
    44
    Views:
    12,257
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.