Clipper cargo/cruise sailing boat

[Surfer Naval Architect]

Hello everyone,

I am studying the possibility to open a start up for shipping with cargo cruise clippers, like this: Ship - Timbercoast https://timbercoast.com/en/ship/.

First of all, this post is for an open discussion, so if you have any comments/tips about it, I would be glad to hear it. Also if you would be interested to join the partnership of the startup!

I was thinking as first assumption to have 12 crew, 36 trainees and 12 passengers.

Now, I am wondering which kind of regulations especially for stability should be applied.
Additionally, which is the impact in regulations for a GT > 500 tons?

It would also be nice to know which is your opinion about the sails, which kind of technology is the most advance and appropriate for clippers. Is Dynarig a valid option? Is there more advanced technology these days than Dynarig? At least on the theory...

Thank you in advance!

 

[Dejay]

Not sure how relevant, but there is Harry Proa 60' Cargo Ferry for use between island nations. I thought the concept is really cool, a sailing cargo vessel with low draught that can land directly on the shore and can offload containerized cargo.

 

[bajansailor]

An excellent idea Surfer!
Are you basically planning on going into competition against Avontuur / Timber Coast?

And also Tres Hombres?
Home - Fairtransport https://fairtransport.eu/

Who are affiliated with these folk -
New Dawn Traders https://www.newdawntraders.com/

And Ceiba (in June 2022, when they finally finish construction)?
SAILCARGO INC. — carbonless ocean cargo https://www.sailcargo.org/#intro

It might be best to try and form a co-operative society with them, rather than being in competition as such?

You mention "I was thinking as first assumption to have 12 crew, 36 trainees and 12 passengers."

Unless you are actually paying the trainees, would they not be regarded as passengers? If so, then your vessel will have to be regarded as a passenger vessel, rather than cargo, and the rules will be much more complex re stability, watertight sub-division et al.

Re rig technology, the three vessels mentioned above all have very traditional rigs, with conventional fore and aft sails and square sails.
If you want to 'go modern', then the Dyna Rig would appear to be the way to go - however it will require HUGE capital investment.

Have a look at the Eco-Liner designed by Gerard Dykstra in the link below.

WASP (Ecoliner) - Dykstra Naval Architects https://www.dykstra-na.nl/designs/wasp-ecoliner/

 

[Rumars]

Well, I hope you do not set up a business like Timbercoast. That's because on the business side they are somewhere between broke and fraudulent. On the ship side they have discovered that the ship is to small to make a profit from cargo. It's probably the same for the rest of them out there, the cargo is an excuse for the trainees, because they actually pay for the ride.
The ship and sails depend on where you want to sail with it. A coastal trader is probably better as a schooner, a transoceanic ship is better with square sails. A dynarig is nothing but a highly automated square sails rig.
Regardless of how big the ship is, as a cargo vessel it will be subject to full commercial regulations for it's size.

 

[Surfer Naval Architect]

Hi Bajansailor,

thanks a lot for your input.

I don't really think about competition with these companies, it is such a niche market that I don't think you could even call it as "competition". About having a co-operative, it is an interesting idea, but I am a Naval Architect and to get cash flow, I would like first to set up a consultancy company with expert engineers in green technologies, as such as hydrogen and ammonia as well. Then step by step creating a nice spec, with high tech and rendering that still will have the nice line style of a Clipper. Having a strong concept design would attract way more investors having in the end the huge capital that you mentioned.

So, in the end having indeed sails like the DynaRig and it could be the case that we could have classic clipper but more for trainees and cruise than for cargo.

About DynaRig, I am trying to study even other technologies that could improve the performance of DynaRig, we could discuss about that if you want.

About the trainees, my idea would be to pay the trainees as well, so I don't think we should comply with probabilistic damage stability but it could be that we have to comply with the deterministic method.

If you would like to join this vision, please send me a private message.

Thanks for your support!

 

[Surfer Naval Architect]

Well, I hope you do not set up a business like Timbercoast. That's because on the business side they are somewhere between broke and fraudulent. On the ship side they have discovered that the ship is to small to make a profit from cargo. It's probably the same for the rest of them out there, the cargo is an excuse for the trainees, because they actually pay for the ride.
The ship and sails depend on where you want to sail with it. A coastal trader is probably better as a schooner, a transoceanic ship is better with square sails. A dynarig is nothing but a highly automated square sails rig.
Regardless of how big the ship is, as a cargo vessel it will be subject to full commercial regulations for it's size.

I really appreciate your technical input, why do you think that a transoceanic ship is better with square sails?

Thanks a lot!

 

[bajansailor]

"I don't really think about competition with these companies, it is such a niche market that I don't think you could even call it as "competition".

That's the trouble - it is such a niche market that you will invariably be competing against Avontuur, Tres Hombres and Ceiba for a very limited type of relatively high value cargo (like coffee and chocolate, oh, and rum).
And equally for a fairly limited 'trainee' market, where the trainees are expected to pay more than what they would pay to go on a cruise on a luxury cruise ship, in exchange for the 'privilege' of receiving instruction in tall ship sailing - oh and doing mundane tasks like chipping, sanding, painting and varnishing.
It is not all about sailing a tall ship across an ocean with the trade winds, and following a star to guide you on night watches - the romance of tall ship sailing has to be combined with the practical aspects of every day maintenance.

"I would like first to set up a consultancy company with expert engineers in green technologies, as such as hydrogen and ammonia as well. Then step by step creating a nice spec, with high tech and rendering that still will have the nice line style of a Clipper. Having a strong concept design would attract way more investors having in the end the huge capital that you mentioned."

Isn't this essentially what Gerard Dykstra is trying to do with his Eco-Liner?
And I get the impression that potential investors are not exactly beating a path to his door to fling vast amounts of money at the company to get the Eco-Liner afloat.
In spite of a very slick sales pitch extolling the virtues of the Eco-Liner.

"So, in the end having indeed sails like the DynaRig and it could be the case that we could have classic clipper but more for trainees and cruise than for cargo."

You have it there in a nut shell - no matter what type of 'small' sailing vessel you have, it is pretty much impossible to earn an honest living with her by exclusively carrying cargo - this will earn you pocket money at best. The real money earner is in carrying passengers (oops, sorry, 'trainees').

"About the trainees, my idea would be to pay the trainees as well, so I don't think we should comply with probabilistic damage stability but it could be that we have to comply with the deterministic method."

Re probabilistic vs deterministic damage stability - I am sorry, but you totally lost me there. Could you explain this a bit more please?

So, you will carry 12 passengers and 36 trainees - and you will pay your trainees so that they are officially crew rather than passengers. This means that the monies earned from the 12 passengers will not only have to pay the wages of the 36 trainees, but these monies will also have to cover the subsidy that the ship will need in order to operate.
And you will also have to put your 36 trainee crew through a basic STCW course before they can join the ship (as it will be doubtful that they already have STCW certificates).
Which means that your 12 pax are going to be paying an awful lot of money for the privilege of sailing with you.

Have a look at the fares charged by the Jubilee Sailing Trust on their tall ship voyages. These might seem to be expensive, yet the JST had to be bailed out by donations to the tune of a lot of money (I can't remember how much) a year or two ago, because they were quite simply flat broke.
A Sea of Possibility | JST https://jst.org.uk/

If I would like to join - thank you for the kind invitation, however potential punters need to appreciate that the odds of them getting a return on their investment are probably very slight generally - at best one might get a discount on a voyage as a paying passenger or trainee.

 

[Surfer Naval Architect]

Hi Bajansailor,

I really like your input, much appreciate it, it help me to test my business case as well.

About the competitors, I fully agree with you. But as I said my spirit is a little bit different, the 36 trainees for me should be paid, and the technical level of the vessels that I have in mind are more close to ecoliner than these traditional clipper (as technology). So, if the vessel is completely different, also in that case I don't think will be a real competition, we are talking about two different type of speed, GT, displacement etc.
But as I said, perhaps it could be an idea to have one co-operative, although I do see a lot of Captain/owners of this vessel being quite conservative and stubborn in their idea. So not really an open mind and pioneering approach...

About Dykstra is true, but they are more specialist in sailing yacht and not really in green technologies like hydrogen and ammonia which in my opinion will be the commercial future, and another thing I think that to enter in the market in a proper way, you should enter at the right time!

About your last sentence, I fully agree, that's why I called a vision... and in my opinion for a vision you need dreamers and not people with a conservative approach...

 

[Rumars]

I really appreciate your technical input, why do you think that a transoceanic ship is better with square sails?
Thanks a lot!

Transoceanic voyages under sail are normally done on the clipper routes, wich are all with following winds. So the question is how to get enough sail area before the wind for a given tonnage (stability). Square sails are simply better at this game then spinnakers. Remember you also need to be able to adjust the sailplan reasonably easy. The performance loss upwind is not really an issue for the application. Traditional squareriggers also had a lot of fore-n-aft sails (jibs, staysails) and they are actually reasonably good upwind but limited by the stays. Dynarigs have freestanding masts and as such are more efficient upwind.
On coastal routes upwind sailing is done much more often so this boats tended to have fore-n-aft sails. I think the biggest schooner ever had 7 masts. And of course there are the combination rigs, brigantines, brigs and the like. Smaller boats also tended to be schooners, they simply need less crew, and a less trained one.
What rig you choose is a matter of application. A sailtraining ship needs strings to pull, what are 36 trainees to do with a dynarig? One person alone adjusts the whole sailplan with a joystick and some buttons. What are the rest going to do?

On the business side, the cargo you need to move for it to be profitable is very specialized. Commodities are not going to cut it, you need to think like in the old times, first voyage has to pay for the ship. What are you thinking of shipping that can pay for 36 trainees? And what is this hydrogen and ammonia stuff?

 

[bajansailor]

Re my question re probabilistic vs deterministic damage stability - as always, I should have asked Google!
I must admit that we learnt about damage stability of ships 35 years ago at college, and I don't remember probabilistic and deterministic back then - but I have also not kept up with it, apart from small craft damage stability calculations (using Wolfson software) a few years later.

Damage Stability http://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/StabilityAndSubdivision/Pages/DamageStability.aspx

 

[brendan gardam]

a while back there was a lot of talk about kite assisted cargo ships , did anything ever come out of that.

 

[Dejay]

The energy observer was testing one recently. I imagine kite sails, once you figured out fully autonomous sailing using AI and automatic launch and retrieval, could be the most energy efficient "engine" to move cargo in a sustainable way. But you'd need to mass manufacture smaller container ships and a whole lot more of them.

 

[bajansailor]

Re kite assistance, these folk seem to be one of the world leaders in this field.

https://skysails-group.com/

 

[Surfer Naval Architect]

Re my question re probabilistic vs deterministic damage stability - as always, I should have asked Google!
I must admit that we learnt about damage stability of ships 35 years ago at college, and I don't remember probabilistic and deterministic back then - but I have also not kept up with it, apart from small craft damage stability calculations (using Wolfson software) a few years later.

Damage Stability http://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/StabilityAndSubdivision/Pages/DamageStability.aspx

I think this is just small summary, if you want I can give you better material to read.

 

[Surfer Naval Architect]

a while back there was a lot of talk about kite assisted cargo ships , did anything ever come out of that.

I think this is a very complex idea for a clipper, but it may be a good solution for motor ships.