Classic Catamaran

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by FirstLight, Sep 17, 2007.

  1. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    So for you, seeing as you are posting pictures of interiors, a classic look is a timber interior?

    Whats so hard about that, costly, high maintenance, but not overly difficult if you open the cheque book.

    Unfortunately the main images for this catamaran are unavailable, but you can use (ctrl and roll mouse wheel) to enlarge the thumbnails for a somewhat better image

    http://images.google.com.au/images?...an for sale&btnG=Search Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=
     
  2. clothears
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    clothears Junior Member

    Matt,
    do you perchance still have any of those drawings? I'm not looking to plagerise you,but I am very interested in any input that I can find to take the concept forward.You are IMO right on the money with the length factor.Even the monohulls are extraordinarily difficult to keep elegance and form in in shorter dimension.The biggest concern I have is hobby horsing which we all know is the bane of catamarans.This naturally enough is a negative when suggesting bowsprits of classic schooner proportions.Yet I feel that the gracious bowsprit is essential if elegance is to be part of the equation. I often doodle away on the computer alternating between wine glass transoms and even fantails.Each time I settle on one .....the other begins to impress once more....damn it.
    I really must find some old ramblings I did some years back and post for some critical comment.I know I filed them so they would fall easily to hand.This will ensure a long a torturous search before the eureka moment arrives ha ha!
    Cheers,
    Paul C.
     
  3. clothears
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    clothears Junior Member

    Sabahcat,
    I post three pictures and you assume that timber is my idea of a classic! I posted three pictures asking you to pick the catamaran interior......so which one do you think it is?What is the sum of a classic? Art deco is a classic example of a fine era. But it is far more than the sum of the materials used.No, it is far more about execution. A blending of of materials that are in harmony.I'm sorry if I sound a bit surreal but thats what its all about.Stainless steel,Glass,vinyl,marble,brass,timber,composites can all meld into an object of desire.....all it needs is skill and emotion.Class is often an indefinable and understated elegance.Riva is a perfect example of that.I'm sorry, but to say that if you want to throw enough money around its easy is IMHO nowhere near reality.It is perhaps the most difficult characteristic to achieve. Very very few designers ever reach that pinnacle.Murray peterson,William Fife,Herreschoff,Daniel Bombigher. These people are not revered for nought.Their boats served their intended purpose extremely well and were heart palpatatingly beautiful at the same time.The marinas are bursting at the seams with some very serious money that has about as much class as an oil recovery barge.Not forgetting there have in some instances been designers of some note involved.Incidentally whats wrong with timber.Maintenance is usually the first reason proffered up.But there simply thousands of people happy to put in the effort in return for the immense satisfaction that comes from owning a classic.There are many classics that have outlived a myriad of composite boats and will continue to do so.Largely because their owners are in love.I have to say too that there are some excellent products around nowadays that make this far less a chore than it once was.Lets not also forget maintenance is hardly something that dissipates completely no matter what boat you own.
    Cheers,
    Paul c.
     
  4. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    Nothing at all, my boats made almost entirely from it, but for a cat you need light weight, so that has to be taken into consideration.

    I agree, white urethane paints are one of my favourites, nice shiny clean bright practical almost hose out interiors with little maintenance.

    But for some it can be a lot less than others.
    I have seen many of these vessels you describe above and know people who own some and they always seem to be sanding and varnishing and scrapping and painting something to keep them looking the way they do, and not much time sailing them.

    But **** they look nice and they have the awards to prove it.

    Me? I'd rather be out there using it than maintaining it continually and worrying that some guy in his dug out canoe that has little respect for my topsides might (will) damage the paint or that the customs guys in black kicker boots with his overly excited dog will do the same on my nicely varnished interior.
     
  5. clothears
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    clothears Junior Member

    Sabahcat,
    Okay I see your point but I do wish to offer a couple of counterpoints.
    1) a classic catamaran built using a combination of quality veneers will not stretch the weight issue to breaking point.
    2) Polyurethane comes in clear.
    3)Timber alone does not a classic boat make.Talent does.
    4) A classic catamaran built today using advanced techniques can still look the classic goods and have very few quantifiable maintenance issues that somehow relate to the poor souls you refer to sanding into the night.
    5) Osmosis,delamination,gelcoating seems like maintenance to me. No boat is an island.

    I really want or hope to get input that takes the classic goal forward......not why it is not worth persuing.This would bring an entirely new market. A market that captures the hearts and wallets of those who cannot quite appreciate the whitegoods approach to catamarans......you know......the ones you can hose out and go sailing. For me I like,no,love to behold something that transcends practicality of form and function.If that takes effort then so be it.I am pretty certain I am not alone. Some very interesting boats have been put forward thus far....from Matt and Brian for example and Tad also.I've even been cutting and transposing the topsides of twenties classics onto Tads offering.Whilst not quite on the money there is a hint of something that causes me to think I am on the right course.Or perhaps I am completely off beam.
    Cheers,
    Paul C.
     
  6. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    But they are still weight (compared to paint) and weight is the enemy to be avoided where possible.
    Fancy timber laminates are also very expensive and labour intensive to get right, and look like total ***** if gotten wrong.
    Paint on the other hand can be fudged to a certain extent.
    correct, but you will be wanting a fancy laminate over a cored panel with near perfect joinery underneath that clear.
    To use a solid timber will be overly heavy and costly, to use a light timber will ding to easily.

    Correct and at a premium price

    You will need to demonstrate this to me.
    Any vessel I have had anything to do with (I used to work for a company building 100ft plus megayachts) that had skillfully done timber work needed more work in the first place , needed more care to keep in that condition, and once it got out of condition needed more money spent compared to it painted counterpart.
    Cant just fill those dings, scrapes and scratches in the skillfully done timberwork with a bit of epoxy and give a quick sand and touchup hiding all under solid colour now can we.


    I build from epoxy and paint in urethane, osmosis and gelcoat are not part of my language.

    As for delamination, if it does happen it will be unnoticeable once repaired, bogged and painted.

    Same cant be said for repair work done on clear finished vessels, the difference in material batches is very very noticeable.

    Well it will certainly capture the wallets, just like ths (as an example)

    Expensive boat trying to play the part ($1.3 million)

    [​IMG]
    http://www.pbmy.com.au/range50_classic.html

    The part being played and played well ($235,000)

    [​IMG]
    http://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats/ed.html?de=32988

    Practicality, form, function?
    Using the above vessel as an example wouldn't something like the second one be better
    More practical, more form, more function than the first vessel and a MILLION DOLLARS more affordable.

    And fair enough, each to his own,
    At some stage you will surely need to consider resale, it would be worthwhile looking at that long and hard as there has been many a modern classic (expensive) thing, built with passion and an open chequebook, sold at a huge discount at a latter date.

    Not trying to talk you out of having a go, and will still follow the thread with interest.
     
  7. clothears
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    clothears Junior Member

    Sabahcat,
    I really don't want to drift off my intended line but I will indulge myself a little more. Your comparison photos for me anyway hold no logic.I hope that doesn't offend you.
    A 1.3 million dollar boat versus a $235,000 dollar boat means exactly what ? I am assuming you are pointing out that big money does not necessarily surpass the cheaper alternative by a substantial degree.But you suggested that money would make it a breeze to create a classic. I post for your consideration a $635,000 boat and ask you this question. Does the boat I have posted look beautiful,timeless and a good investment.I really would like your opinion on that.I for one would buy her in a heart beat.Almost $700,000 dollars cheaper than your upper end suggestion.A lot dearer than your lower end suggestion but I will stake my all that you get a lot more boat( seventy eight feet to be exact) and a mountain more satisfaction.
    Cheers,
    Paul C.
     

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  8. clothears
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    clothears Junior Member

    Okay folks here we have the closest thing I can find to what I would call a modern classic cat. She is a Sassier design and to be fair I think she is very long ....130 feet maybe more.But it is not difficult to add in a more tapered bowsprit arrangement.remove the solid glass on the bridge and replace it with individual glass. A few horn ventilators and a couple of skylights that are half seating half skylight and we begin to see the ghosts of great beauty and design become as one.It would not be difficult to imagine a workable length of say seventy feet.....my target length for my own design.
    Cheers,
    Paul C.
     

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  9. sabahcat
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    sabahcat Senior Member

    More like I was suggesting that (using my top example and others I can point you to), it appears these days that to create a classic style, retro look vessel, from modern composite and then make appear to be old school by fitting quality timber laminates, costs a lot of money.

    More than it should imho.

    I was suggesting that in that vessels instance you could buy the $1.3 mill knockoff or the real deal for a lot less.


    An investment? no probably not, dont know too many pleasure boats that have a yield and sell for more than their cost.

    But yes, it is more boat thats for sure and yes it is nicer and to me better value than the former $1.3m vessel.
    It would cost substantualy more to maintain and fuel than my timber example, but $700k @ 6% buys $800/week of it.

    Which makes me wonder why you dont, seriously, it will be cheaper and easier than building a 70ft cat and you will be out there now enjoying her..

    I feel in a position to comment as I am well into the build of the 50ft cat in my avatar,Its a long tough slog and the vessel I posted above (and below) is one that I would now buy in a heartbeat as I could buy this now, unfortunately I was flat out affording the first lot of materials when I started the build.
    [​IMG]

    Looking through the same site I find this one, which is exactly what I wanted, but, the mono and 450k in the skyrocket for me would be more sensible.

    [​IMG]
    http://anchorline.com.au/showboat.cfm?reference=659

    Anyway, sorry for the rambling, clearly I am at a stage where my current build is giving me the shits and lately there has been some outstanding vessels come on the market for seemingly a lot less than they were 4 years ago and I cant help thinking that if I had my time again I would be second thinking the build.
     
  10. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    I'm not sure.....I have a feeling we're straying into the land of caricature?

    I'm quite comfortable designing clipper bowed monohulls, I'm working on a small schooner with one right now. Below is one of the clipper types I did in the past....

    HETAIROSBig2.jpg

    HETAIROSwheel.JPG

    This (to me) is believable design....we can make believe we're in a 1800's pirate clipper and maintain a fairly straight face.....:rolleyes:

    But to add two clipper bows to a pirate catamaran? It smacks slightly of a Pirates of Penzance comedy. Clipper bowed catamarans never existed, I'm far more comfortable with the traditional Polynesian bows that CSK added to some of their boats.

    The line between good design and caricature is blurry....it's hard to locate until you drop over the edge. One thing I'm generally against is ornamentation for it's own sake.....the Riva (presumably Aquarama) was mentioned above as an example of good design. It is...but there is nothing on that boat that doesn't have a function as well as look fabulous. The design is a cohesive whole.

    Below is my quick try...which makes me uneasy....just a bit affected

    Cat68.jpg
     
  11. clothears
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    clothears Junior Member

    Please don't be sorry! I have found much of your input most thought provoking.The one thing that keeps me on track is the fact that I know the road ahead well.I have always believed that life is not a destination its a journey.Enjoy your cat and all the challenges it brings you. Turn a challenge into something of no consequense and your a winner.
    Cheers,
    Paul C.
     
  12. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Tad that reminds me of a smaller version mono that was for sale a few years back...great cockpit, hour-glass stern, warm below...thought about buying her...
     

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  13. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    You don't happen to have a photo of her do you??

    I do remember her, particularly as I was a big 'Gunsmoke' fan from the radio program days...that's before TV for the younger generation :rolleyes:
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    The interior photos on this page of my website are all from multihulls...various ones
    http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

    ...and then there was a very nice interior on this Chris White 57 built up in Rhode Island...wasn't cheap though...and varnish a little too shiny for below decks
     

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  15. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

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