So, in addition to wearing a PFD, you're going to fit your kayaks with lights, flares and an EPIRB, right? After all, it's reasonably foreseeable that you might run into problems and need rescuing....
PDW
The Boat Design & Boatbuilding Site
classic 21m US schooner NINA missing
- Thread starter Titirangi
- Start date
So, in addition to wearing a PFD, you're going to fit your kayaks with lights, flares and an EPIRB, right? After all, it's reasonably foreseeable that you might run into problems and need rescuing....
PDW
daiquiri
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It all boils down to how much one values his own life... I like to think that you guys consider yours much more than $420 worth: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GME-AccuSat...712?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232cd8db08
And if it's not your's, then it's the lives of the rescue crews, and I am pretty sure that they consider themselves much more than $420 worth. So it's a right thing to oblige anyone who wants to venture into the big blue to have one of these devices on board, in an easily reachable place in case of sudden emergency.
If you can't afford it, you can't afford yourself a boat either.
And if it's not your's, then it's the lives of the rescue crews, and I am pretty sure that they consider themselves much more than $420 worth. So it's a right thing to oblige anyone who wants to venture into the big blue to have one of these devices on board, in an easily reachable place in case of sudden emergency.
If you can't afford it, you can't afford yourself a boat either.
You (and others) simply do not get it, do you?
It is not a question of money.
It is a question of personal responsibility for ones actions.
Nobody is making the skipper of a pleasure vessel go blue water sailing. This is a freely chosen decision.
Can you please explain to me just WHY you and others feel an overwhelming need to search for a person who has made a decision, in advance, not to ask for such a search to take place?
Please?
By what logic do you claim the right & necessity to do such a thing?
Do you also claim the right to keep a person who is terminally ill, hooked to a life support system when they have asked for it to be switched off?
If not, why not?
PDW
Peter
Maybe you changed your mind and we need to ask you whether you still don't want to be rescued
An Andover will drop you a nice vhf radio or two if yours is broken and you can then tell them to bugger off.But really this has been considered and it's because the bevy of concerned friends and relatives are breathing down someones neck. And a country cannot abrogate responsibility for its SOLAS SAR area regardless of the missing individuals disposition on the matter.
cheers
Mike
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Most first world countries do have reasonable safe guards, with passengers for hire and other commercial ventures. Pleasure craft needn't fall under these regulations, any more than the prudent skipper (which must be assumed) would deem fit.
Okay, lets look at a mandatory EPIRB requirement. Do you realize what this would do the the USCG? Every 4th of July, they'd have 90% false alarms, because some boneheads have dropped the thing over the side, some 10 year old has activated it or it was tosses in an ice cooler on the way home from the loading ramp, for lack of a better place to hide the thing. Talk about increased costs for the USCG. An exponential explosion of false alarms, would really help this situation, don't you think?
What's next, if EPIRBS seem like a good idea - maybe boating licenses, because the state budgets aren't over stretched enough currently? Possibly we should delving into the pesky problem of mandatory vessel inspection, because you know boneheads tend to forget about transom plugs and PFD's. They deserve a fine at the very least, don't you think? Rather than asking folks to be responsible, we should mandate this requirement, of course with the obligatorily fines, fees, 3 day waiting period and red tape associated with this sort of thing. How about radar reflectors, as a factory installed bit of standard equipment - shouldn't cost them too much, right? BTW, who's going to pay for all this?
You can argue each and every one of these, some good, some less so, but it's missing the point. There's no debate that having a radar reflector or EPIRB is a good idea, but you have to as a society, assume your people will make good, reasonable and rational decisions. We make this assumption when you sit down at a deposition hearing, make a statement to the police or testify in court, so why not in the way we handle our lives afloat? It's a social trust thing, period. Some things are over their heads, like transponder numbers on a radar screen or the various standards their vessel is built to, but decisions of a skipper and a few guests should be left to them, not paid political spokespeople that will draw up a hunk of legislation, best serving their corporate interests than the people they're serving. The real point is we can't speak to potential exposure to error, without a considerable amount of trust in our fellow man.
Okay, lets look at a mandatory EPIRB requirement. Do you realize what this would do the the USCG? Every 4th of July, they'd have 90% false alarms, because some boneheads have dropped the thing over the side, some 10 year old has activated it or it was tosses in an ice cooler on the way home from the loading ramp, for lack of a better place to hide the thing. Talk about increased costs for the USCG. An exponential explosion of false alarms, would really help this situation, don't you think?
What's next, if EPIRBS seem like a good idea - maybe boating licenses, because the state budgets aren't over stretched enough currently? Possibly we should delving into the pesky problem of mandatory vessel inspection, because you know boneheads tend to forget about transom plugs and PFD's. They deserve a fine at the very least, don't you think? Rather than asking folks to be responsible, we should mandate this requirement, of course with the obligatorily fines, fees, 3 day waiting period and red tape associated with this sort of thing. How about radar reflectors, as a factory installed bit of standard equipment - shouldn't cost them too much, right? BTW, who's going to pay for all this?
You can argue each and every one of these, some good, some less so, but it's missing the point. There's no debate that having a radar reflector or EPIRB is a good idea, but you have to as a society, assume your people will make good, reasonable and rational decisions. We make this assumption when you sit down at a deposition hearing, make a statement to the police or testify in court, so why not in the way we handle our lives afloat? It's a social trust thing, period. Some things are over their heads, like transponder numbers on a radar screen or the various standards their vessel is built to, but decisions of a skipper and a few guests should be left to them, not paid political spokespeople that will draw up a hunk of legislation, best serving their corporate interests than the people they're serving. The real point is we can't speak to potential exposure to error, without a considerable amount of trust in our fellow man.
Nina had an EBIRP that may or may not have been functional and was stowed below, maybe it began sending at about the 10 fathom mark.
PDW, You extrapolate the idea of rules to suggest a kayak should be kitted out the full monty or alternatively in the spirit of freedom of choice and responsibility every time an individual sets out alone 'be it upon their head'.
Would that then apply to just yachts, or include private aircraft, individuals long distance driving, all high risk sports, long distance interstate sports events etc.
I personally think when we pay taxes and elect a government that one of the services provided is support for people game to do more than live a safe 9-5 regime and mow lawns every weekend. I'm pretty sure that if my yacht had been disabled or sunk when I blue water sailed that I would have been grateful for being rescued.
PDW, You extrapolate the idea of rules to suggest a kayak should be kitted out the full monty or alternatively in the spirit of freedom of choice and responsibility every time an individual sets out alone 'be it upon their head'.
Would that then apply to just yachts, or include private aircraft, individuals long distance driving, all high risk sports, long distance interstate sports events etc.
I personally think when we pay taxes and elect a government that one of the services provided is support for people game to do more than live a safe 9-5 regime and mow lawns every weekend. I'm pretty sure that if my yacht had been disabled or sunk when I blue water sailed that I would have been grateful for being rescued.
El_Guero
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If it began signalling, they would have gotten a signal.
El_Guero
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PDW,
I doubt there is any real concern for the crew of the Nina being expressed.
If there was, they would be out searching. There are plenty of volunteer opportunities for those who want to find their fellow man.
I doubt there is any real concern for the crew of the Nina being expressed.
If there was, they would be out searching. There are plenty of volunteer opportunities for those who want to find their fellow man.
rwatson
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Ozzie Osborne used to say "I dont want to live past 30"
His attitude changed shortly after his 29th birthday.
Anyone who thinks that their diehard, independent survival stance will last in the face of maritime disaster ( and as Mike says, for the passengers as well ) is being a bit unrealistic.
His attitude changed shortly after his 29th birthday.
Anyone who thinks that their diehard, independent survival stance will last in the face of maritime disaster ( and as Mike says, for the passengers as well ) is being a bit unrealistic.
Keh?
A detailed and expensive air search of an area about four times the size of New Zealand after using drift modelling to try to determine where the boat might be. Paid for by the NZ taxpayer.
Shipping was and still is advised to look out for the boat or wreckage.
How does that all add up to no concern in your mind ? What would you recommend ?
daiquiri
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I just love the understatements.
El_Guero
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¿Qué?
No, contestelo búsqueda por La Nina. Hay un montón de oportunidades para la búsqueda y rescate en su país.
But, if you do not want to be on a search and rescue team, you don't have to volunteer.
I might not have made that very clear
The detailed and expensive air search was carried out of an area about four times the size of New Zealand after using drift modelling to try to determine where the boat might be. Paid for by the NZ taxpayer. In fact there were 3 searches in total.
And not by volunteers they have very little useful role in large scale maritime searches. There was a huge amount of concern and every effort was taken once it became apparent there was a problem. Albeit a bit late.
The detailed and expensive air search was carried out of an area about four times the size of New Zealand after using drift modelling to try to determine where the boat might be. Paid for by the NZ taxpayer. In fact there were 3 searches in total.
And not by volunteers they have very little useful role in large scale maritime searches. There was a huge amount of concern and every effort was taken once it became apparent there was a problem. Albeit a bit late.
4th July NZ Maritime search report
The Rescue Coordination Centre New Zealand (RCCNZ) is continuing to assess all available information in the search for the crew of the American schooner Nina, which is missing en route from New Zealand to Australia. Today's radar search of more than 97,000 square nautical miles has been completed without any sighting of the vessel.
The 21m (70ft) Nina, sailing from Opua in the Bay of Islands to Newcastle with seven people on board, has not been heard from since 4 June.
On 15 June, RCCNZ obtained from Iridium, a satellite communications company, details of the approximate position and actual time (1150 NZST 04 June 2013) of the last transmission from the Nina’s satellite phone.
Nigel Clifford, Maritime New Zealand’s General Manager Safety and Response Services, said the position information was then factored into search area calculations, along with other available information.
“As concern for the vessel increased, RCCNZ made further enquiries with Iridium about all transmissions made from the Nina’s satellite phone during the period of interest,” said Mr Clifford.
On 29 June it became known that the last transmission (a text message), on 4 June, had not been delivered to its intended recipient by the Iridium system. RCCNZ, working with the United States State Department, sought the release of the undelivered text message contents, which RCCNZ received on 3 July.
A copy of the text message follows:
from_unixtime(received_time): 2013-06-03 23:50:25
status: UNDELIVERABLE
src_addr: [phone number]
dest_addr: *2
cshort_message: THANKS STORM SAILS SHREDDED LAST NIGHT, NOW BARE POLES. GOINING 4KT 310DEG WILL UPDATE COURSE INFO @ 6PM
Search summary
2 July
An aerial search south of Norfolk, covering approximately 2,100 square nautical miles. The P3 Orion was airborne at 6am and searched until 4.30pm before returning to New Zealand.
1 July
An aerial search of approximately 3,780 square nautical miles north of North Cape. The P3 Orion arrived on scene at about 9.30am and continued searching until 6pm. Conditions in the search area were good, with excellent visibility.
30 June
An extensive aerial search of 4,830 square nautical miles north-east of Northland. The P3 Orion arrived at the search area at around 8am and conducted an aerial and radar search until approximately 4pm.
29 June
An extended shoreline search for the crew was undertaken for a second day without success. RCCNZ tasked a helicopter to perform a coastal search from Port Waikato to New Plymouth. The Tauranga-based Phillips Search and Rescue helicopter was on scene at around 11.45am.
28 June
A twin-engine fixed-wing aircraft was tasked to search the shoreline and coast starting at Tauroa Point, along Ninety Mile Beach, north of Northland, and out to and around Three Kings Islands.
The Hamilton-based Phillips Search and Rescue Trust fixed-wing Piper Chieftain aeroplane with the pilot and three observers on board arrived at Tauroa Point from Hamilton at about 10.45am, and searched throughout the day until 5pm.
26 June
A search was completed of 324,000 square nautical miles between northern New Zealand and the Australian coast, based on the vessel suffering damage but continuing to make progress towards Australia.
25 June
A search area of 140,000 square nautical miles was covered, to the immediate north-north-east of New Zealand, based on the vessel being disabled and drifting.
El_Guero, as you said no real concern, just a brief reccy before lunch
The Rescue Coordination Centre New Zealand (RCCNZ) is continuing to assess all available information in the search for the crew of the American schooner Nina, which is missing en route from New Zealand to Australia. Today's radar search of more than 97,000 square nautical miles has been completed without any sighting of the vessel.
The 21m (70ft) Nina, sailing from Opua in the Bay of Islands to Newcastle with seven people on board, has not been heard from since 4 June.
On 15 June, RCCNZ obtained from Iridium, a satellite communications company, details of the approximate position and actual time (1150 NZST 04 June 2013) of the last transmission from the Nina’s satellite phone.
Nigel Clifford, Maritime New Zealand’s General Manager Safety and Response Services, said the position information was then factored into search area calculations, along with other available information.
“As concern for the vessel increased, RCCNZ made further enquiries with Iridium about all transmissions made from the Nina’s satellite phone during the period of interest,” said Mr Clifford.
On 29 June it became known that the last transmission (a text message), on 4 June, had not been delivered to its intended recipient by the Iridium system. RCCNZ, working with the United States State Department, sought the release of the undelivered text message contents, which RCCNZ received on 3 July.
A copy of the text message follows:
from_unixtime(received_time): 2013-06-03 23:50:25
status: UNDELIVERABLE
src_addr: [phone number]
dest_addr: *2
cshort_message: THANKS STORM SAILS SHREDDED LAST NIGHT, NOW BARE POLES. GOINING 4KT 310DEG WILL UPDATE COURSE INFO @ 6PM
Search summary
2 July
An aerial search south of Norfolk, covering approximately 2,100 square nautical miles. The P3 Orion was airborne at 6am and searched until 4.30pm before returning to New Zealand.
1 July
An aerial search of approximately 3,780 square nautical miles north of North Cape. The P3 Orion arrived on scene at about 9.30am and continued searching until 6pm. Conditions in the search area were good, with excellent visibility.
30 June
An extensive aerial search of 4,830 square nautical miles north-east of Northland. The P3 Orion arrived at the search area at around 8am and conducted an aerial and radar search until approximately 4pm.
29 June
An extended shoreline search for the crew was undertaken for a second day without success. RCCNZ tasked a helicopter to perform a coastal search from Port Waikato to New Plymouth. The Tauranga-based Phillips Search and Rescue helicopter was on scene at around 11.45am.
28 June
A twin-engine fixed-wing aircraft was tasked to search the shoreline and coast starting at Tauroa Point, along Ninety Mile Beach, north of Northland, and out to and around Three Kings Islands.
The Hamilton-based Phillips Search and Rescue Trust fixed-wing Piper Chieftain aeroplane with the pilot and three observers on board arrived at Tauroa Point from Hamilton at about 10.45am, and searched throughout the day until 5pm.
26 June
A search was completed of 324,000 square nautical miles between northern New Zealand and the Australian coast, based on the vessel suffering damage but continuing to make progress towards Australia.
25 June
A search area of 140,000 square nautical miles was covered, to the immediate north-north-east of New Zealand, based on the vessel being disabled and drifting.
El_Guero, as you said no real concern, just a brief reccy before lunch
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