Chinese Teak

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by hkalan, Jun 27, 2013.

  1. hkalan
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 24
    Location: Hong Kong

    hkalan New Member

    Hello,

    I am a new member here ! Glad to read all the fantastic info in all the threads !

    I have spent a lot of free time over the last year, restoring an older 15m Chinese Teak Cruiser. Truly a labour of love with this vessel.

    Now that the hull has been restored (and all the termites dead). It is time to begin the Electrics... I have a clean slate here, and I want to go "Over-the-top" with this. Put all the convenient switches, panel lights, Renewable energy sources, and monitoring.

    I have 2 births that the old girl can get tucked into, and both have a 32 amp (230v 50Hz) service. The vessel came with an older Onan 7.5Kw 230v 50Hz generator. I have a few solar panels temporarily installed on the top deck that will move to a permanent rack above the top Bimini. I want to also add 2 wind turbines on the stern of the top deck (they are 600w each).

    I hope I could get some positive input from the forum on what I am currently doing on the AC electrics, as well as the DC side once the AC is completed.

    One thing that I have always wanted to do, was to have a kWh metre to know exactly what I am using. So many times I have done the math about how much each device uses (fridge, charger etc.), but the real world is never the same as what looks good on paper. I found a factory that makes nice panel mount kWh metres that I am incorporating to the AC panel, and since I will have Solar and wind, I will install 2Kw grid tied inverter to feed back to the grid when she is sitting silent at the birth hooked up to shore power... another great use for the kWh metre showing what I send back to the marina (love to lower my power bills from the marina HaHaHa).

    These are the type of creative things I hope the forum can suggest, to help me make this Teak Vessel very special and modern !

    I am putting the AC panel together now. What you see in the attached picture is the layout for the AC Main, and the Inverter AC panel. Still at a point to make some changes to make it better !

    Attached are some images of the AC main panel, as well as the Inverter AC panel.

    Thanks,

    Alan
     

    Attached Files:

    1 person likes this.
  2. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    For a 1200Ah house bank I usually discuss the planned layout with the battery manufacturer support engineer. Charging, battery box design, etc.

    For this size AGM 24V DC deep discharge house bank I use 12 2V single cells in series. Batteries purchased at the same time with same lot code (batch). I always try and avoid series parallel combinations for this size bank.

    In the US I generally use ROLLs (canadian company) Battery Company AGMs.

    Some times it is better for the layout if 2 600Ah House banks are used on separate panels. A few reasons;

    Each individual battery weighs less.

    Battery chargers are more abundant for this size bank.

    If a cell goes bad you can use the other bank as backup.

    All for now,

    Mark Cat
     
  3. hkalan
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 24
    Location: Hong Kong

    hkalan New Member

    Hello,

    I would love to use 2v batteries, but the availability is not convenient as the 12v 200Ah Deep Cycle AGM batteries here. I can cruise over to the Jetty near by, and the import/export distributor of the batteries has the warehouse crew that will slide them on the vessel... the Batteries are from South Korea, and only $140 USD each if I buy 4 or more at a time.

    I am setting up the serial/parallel so I can take one set offline as needed, as you can see in the attachment. That should give me the flexibility and functionality.

    Thanks again for the positive feedback !

    Alan
     

    Attached Files:

  4. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
    Posts: 3,825
    Likes: 161, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 971
    Location: Coastal Georgia

    SamSam Senior Member

    I have nothing on the electronics, sorry.

    Commenting on the photos, if they are recent, the boat would look 100% better if the tires and fenders were not there and hanging them from the railings like that is a good way to lose the railings when the boat rubs up and down against a dock or something.

    The boat looks real nice. What finish did you use on the teak?
     
  5. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    It is best to talk to the battery manufacturer about the proposed series and parallel connection in regards to power take offs, cross connect, charging etc. Also, get feed back on the proposed battery box design.

    I have attached a drawing of one way to connect 6 12Vs for 24V bank. I don't use the series + parallel bank designs, so I do not have a lot of data on AGM balance. My notes say the opposite corner take off approach helps with balance. After the bank is in operation you can check individual AGM battery CCAs over time to get a feel for balance.

    All for now,

    Mark Cat
     

    Attached Files:

  6. hkalan
    Joined: Jun 2013
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 1, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 24
    Location: Hong Kong

    hkalan New Member

    Hello,

    The tires are gone, and real fenders are in place. The tires worked best for protecting the wood when getting the vessel on/off the slipway. The hull has 5 coats of International brand epoxy made for the Teak wood. The International rep oversaw the entire process. It was well worth the expense.

    I wanted to go with the that battery wiring, as it costs much less for the wires, but after several meeting with the battery manufacturer. They said my parallel plan would provide even charging. Key point: Having all the parallel wires the exact same length will maintain the same resistance, so all series batteries charge evenly, and taking one set of series batteries off-line is very convenient !

    I have finished the main framework of the AC main panel, and tested it to assure the indicator lights all work properly, as well as the kWh meters. A few more bits and bobs to put in, and then to begin the AC Inverter panel.

    Thanks for the great input !

    Alan
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  7. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    In regards to the power distribution for a larger vessel like yours, the trend I see to loads and power are as follows:

    1) For safety with parallel/series banks, there are usually 2 and perhaps three 24V DC battery banks. For three banks, two identical large banks and one small emergency lighting (panel) Bank (2 batteries in series).

    2) Lighting is all DC LED.

    3) Inverters run all AC loads except for large AC induction motor loads.

    4) Refrigerators and freezers are DC powered.

    5) Shore or Gen power is mostly devoted to recharging the battery banks.

    All for now,

    Mark Cat
     
  8. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 2,478
    Likes: 42, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 223
    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    In principle it is easy to measure the Kw and KWh. It is a school project. A microprocessor with LCD output and two Analogue to Digital converter inputs (ADC). The DC current is measured with the one ADC and the fluctuations on the 24 Volt is measuered with 2nd ADC. In the processor it gets multiplied and displayed on the Liquid Display (LCD) If one adds the time and store it in one of the registers, you have the Kwh reading.

    However, it is much easier to buy a complete system from http://www.setoteknolog.com/dc-energy-meter.htm
    Bert
     
  9. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 2,478
    Likes: 42, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 223
    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Alan,
    To come back on your DC side of your system. Ideally, you want to know what is left over in your batteries. i.e.
    a) starting point with measuring the full power in your batteries every second
    b) measuring what is used from your battery for your system, every second.
    c) add the current and the !!! battery voltage AFTER the Solar panel regulator, every second
    d) add any wind energy input after the regulator ***at the battery, every second
    e) what is left over is either a full battery and the energy in Kwh what was produced by the solar/wind units or removed energy from the battery.

    note *** often diodes are used to avoid the battery of discharging over the solar system. Thus you need to measure at 3 points. battery voltage, solar battery charging voltage at the diode point and the same for the wind generator battery charging voltage (not open Voltage)

    This would be very nice for you, as it gives a complete picture of you DC energy side.
    Bert
     
  10. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 2,478
    Likes: 42, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 223
    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Mark, If Alan cannot have a second low voltage system for the lighting side, I had the hell in with companies who made false claims and did a test and measured all the crap they printed on their packaging.
    The result is that there are very good 230 Volt (or 110 Volt) LED globes/bulbs/lamps which have the same power consumption as the 12 or 24 Volt DC ones. Thus Alan can use 230 Volt AC, but just has to be careful in selecting the right make.

    Here is the test result.
    1) The Ellies 12 Volt LED model no MR 18 is drawing 210 mA and the supply battery voltage is 13.04 Volt (fully charged SLAB) i.e. 2.73 watt consumption rated 3.2 Watt >>> excellent
    2) The Ellies 220/40 Volt LED model no NVV – is drawing 62 mA and the supply Voltage is 234.3 Volt ac Markings 045 3 W E27 NVV 220 – 240 Vac 51 mA Made in China 1238 Daylight >>>> Misleading information . 234.3 Volt x 62 mA = 14.52 watt and not 3 Watt. For 11 watt, one can have a normal energy saving bulb for 1/3 of the price . The 15 years life cycle must still be proven.
    3) The Ellies 220/40 Volt LED model no NVV is drawing 61 mA and the supply Voltage is 234.4 Volt ac Markings 045 3 W E27 NVV 220 – 240 Vac 51 mA Made in China 1238 Daylight . Also 14.29 watt and not 3 watt.
    4) Uniontech SA 220 Volt LED model no SZ201208/9SZ candle type E27 3.5 watt cool white drawing 47 mA and the supply Voltage is 234.1 Volt = 11 Watt
    5) Radiant 3 LED model 230 Volt 50 mA (not dimmable)is drawing 14 mA at a Voltage of 234.5 Volt ac = 3.28 watt >>> excellent
    6) Radiant 3 LED model 230 Volt 50 mA (not dimmable)is drawing 13 mA at a Voltage of 234.4 Volt ac = 3.05 watt >>> excellent
    7) Uniontech SA 220 Volt LED model no C37 candle SZ201208/9ZL , 3.5 watt cool white drawing 47 mA and the supply Voltage is 234.1 Volt = 11 Watt
    8) 5 x Ellies candle type TC37 – E14 53 mA 2 watt 220 – 240 Vac 50/60 Hz made in China 1142 is drawing 39 mA at a Voltage of 234.2 V = 9.13 watt

    Notes: The current was measured with a Major model MT24

    Bert
     
  11. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 2,478
    Likes: 42, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 223
    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Alan, before you can count on, that the electricity bill will be reduced by feeding energy back to shore, is to find out whether the offshore meter can handle reverse energy feeding. Not all KWh meters can do that. Please try to get the make and model no. Maybe we can help you there.
    Bert
     
  12. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    Bert, for a production boat, all DC LED lights are tested on the bench for acceptance (spectral output, interior design team mockup test), power dissipation (includes thermal hot spots), and other screening tests (Mechanical, finish, materials).

    For the 24V DC-to-DC converter LED controllers (electrically noisy) I like to run a bench radiated emission EMC test (similar to a prescreening test found at OEMs).

    All basic DMM tests are done with a true RMS voltmeter.

    In response to your question, moving to high efficiency AC lamps is a way to reduce inverter draw without rewiring (if the old wiring is fit for operation).

    The operational requirements for newer mid size yacht designs call for very low noise (audible) and vibration (engines, generators).

    Regards,

    Mark Cat
     
  13. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 2,478
    Likes: 42, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 223
    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Indeed Mark, I am not so much interested in the few new boats manufactured, but merely like to help those millions of boats out there, who like to reduce their AC consumption and they should know that there are companies who truly manufacture what is printed on their packaging. Companies like OSRAM, Radiant and there must be a few more, who supply what they print on their labels.
    Bert
     

  14. philSweet
    Joined: May 2008
    Posts: 2,274
    Likes: 158, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1082
    Location: Beaufort, SC and H'ville, NC

    philSweet Senior Member

    welcome, HKalan,

    some random observations from the peanut gallery.

    1. I wouldn't bother with the MPPT controllers unless the price points have changed a lot since I last checked. Panel prices were falling faster than the MPPT's, so they were actually becoming harder to justify unless your space was maxxed out and you still needed more solar. The cost of those extra few watts per sqft is pretty high.

    2. You'd probably need to cover the entire marina in panels to justify the grid tie system. It's a toy, leave it for last.

    3. I'd set the solar up as three 24 volt systems each running to a cheapo controller and have a spare on hand. Route one to each house bank and one to the start bank and let them be. I'd have all banks ganged for the most part, and isolate only for maintenance or long distance cruising where a formal watch schedule was in place. That assumes that the start bank is compatible. Use an isolator relay to protect the start batts from deep discharge.

    4. Size the solar to do the following.
    A. Tend to all the needs of the unoccupied ship for long periods of time.
    B. Recharge all batteries from 75% to 95% in one average day. The efficiency of charging as a function of state of charge depends on battery type, but it generally falls off at higher states of charge. Use a gen set to get the batteries up to 75%.
    C. Add wind gens last. They are annoying, short lived compared to solar, and annoying. Did I mention they are annoying? The decent ones are expensive. A single big one would be better- 7-8 feet in diameter.

    5. Fuse the battery banks.

    6. I like LED lights, but I couldn't bring myself to do that to your boat. Oil and low temp color rendition bulbs in brass and porcelain fixtures would be worth the trouble. You can get 2700K color bulbs in fluorescent, but the UV tears up fabrics and coatings.

    7. I'm A bit stingy when it comes to power distribution. Consider scattering several 150W inverters around and just using DC distribution. It's the bloody hair driers that will kill you. Nobody needs more than 150W. Stash a 700W device somewhere for tools.

    8. Assuming your not going to do #7 above, I think you will frequently find yourself short on mains power. One possible solution to improve peak power is to run the inverter panel on inverter power and use a load managing battery charger to charge when there is mains power to spare and quit when there is a large mains panel demand. Another option is to run the genset offline but feeding a charger. The genset can be set up with autostart/autostop.

    9. Be prepared to find all kinds of problems with marina power. They were not built to accommodate vessels pulling max power using load management. Their distribution probably assumes an average demand of less than 16 amps per leg. I'd provide a much bigger mains input considering your over-the-top systems.
     
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.