"Chine-Runners" greatest invention of 20th century?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Squidly-Diddly, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    It doesn't point very well and the way it drifts to leward is atrocious.
     
  3. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    They don't look terribly effective to me, but for the designs of this boat they probably work ok. He doesn't really expect to be hard on the wind very much of the trip, and so all he needs is enough for a beam reach to be effective.
     
  4. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    How is he going to get upwind? It will be almost impossible to paddle from that tiny round hatch.
     
  5. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    It reminds me a bit of a Beetles song.

    How does it go now...

    -Tom
     
  6. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Yellow submarine?
     
  7. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    This is a terrible boat. Watch 3:00 into the video where there is a daysailor in the distance.
    Yvind must be doing 30degrees worse into the wind with 10 degrees of leeway. A simple leeboard would be a significant benefit no matter how its built.

    That guy is going to get one hell of a backache standing in that hatch, I hope he tacks a lot so he can see other boats. This thing won't tack for nothing.

    Terrible boat.

    He would do better bolting those angles on the bottom rather than the side. Then the boat will be just really, really bad.

    I have never seen a yellow coffin before.
     
  8. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Same thing I noticed. I am glad is not only me.
     
  9. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    "The greatest thing in the 20th century" is his opening comment, which suggests he knows little about design.

    Chine runners have been around a long time and deep bellied craft can benefit from them. Most large ships employ them, the Titanic, the Iowa class battleships, Nimitz class aircraft carriers and an assorted bunch of Phil Bolger's box boats too.

    They have to have sufficient bury or they're nearly useless. Putting them on a typical canoe body will just make and interesting looking quarter wave, but not much else. They do work to a degree if well buried, but no where near as effective as a more conventional fin or retractable appendage.

    To show his ignorance, he suggests Matt Layden (Sand Flea fame) invented them. I'm not sure how old Matt is, but chine runners have been around since the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries, making him possably the oldest living designer around. He's in Florida, which is understandable for a guy of his advanced years, but he's still doing the Everglades Challenge, which for a fellow his age, I find difficult to accept.

    I'm not sure if Matt frequents this board, but I hope he can drop in and tell us how much leeway he does get with these things. My experience with the Bolger boats are they work, if you don't expect much. You can head upwind, but you do skid off considerably, making progress exciting to say the least. Bolger also knew to bury them and none of his shallow belly designs employed them.
     
  10. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    By watching it carefully, I think some of this leeward drift is actually some kind of current.

    I would not be surprised if he does slide off ten degrees. But if he points 45 deg, he still makes 35 degrees to windward. Hardly around the cans performance, but for a boat that will spend most of its voyaging down wind, it may be adequate.

    What we really have here is a long, wide keel with end plates. The end plates extend the effective draft of this long keel, but do not change how it works. It works more like an angled plow than a wing. Only the water to the lee of it is moved to leeward. The water to windward is just stirred up.

    Matt Leydan explained his intent of this invention with some detail in an interview published in 'Small Craft Advisor' magazine.

    In it he stated that purpose was to transfer the windward lift responsibility to the rudder, much the same way as the deep gripe of Northumbland cobble
    does. His rudders are relatively deep and have high aspect ratios (like the coble does) for that purpose.

    As for Sven Yervin's boat, it looks like he is using them as the prime leeway preventer. The boat in the video, by the way, sailed across the Atlantic.

    Say what you like about Sven, but he probably has more blue water experience in small and tiny boats than just about anyone living today. He has successfully crossed the ocean at least four times on boats of his own design and build. Not bad for someone who started out unschooled in boat design. Though he has made a lot of mistakes, he has, IMHO, contributed a lot more to small craft design than most who make a living at it.

    As for chine runners being invented before. They probably weren't. What looks like them are actually bilge keels with the purpose of roll dampening. Ships like the TITANIC had so much draft they probably didn't need any extra leeway prevention. I imagine these bilge keels also shortened the turning radius, but that was probably a by product.
     
  11. Submarine Tom

    Submarine Tom Previous Member

    False alarm everyone.

    These are "chin-runners" not "chine-runners".

    Check the thread title...

    Phew, that was close...

    -Tom
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2012
  12. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Sharpii: if he points 45 degrees and has 10 degrees of leeway, he is doing 55 degrees to windward. Also, the video shows a low performance monohull a bit ahead pointing at least 10 degrees higher.
     
  13. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Yes, those looks like bilge keels to me, for roll damping, crosswind leeway prevention, and to dry out level.

    _MOLENAAR_VLET_6.20_1_.jpg - _MOLENAAR_VLET_6.20_2_.jpg - _MOLENAAR_VLET_6.20_3_.jpg

    _MOLENAAR_VLET_6.20_4_.jpg - _MOLENAAR_VLET_6.20_5_.jpg - _MOLENAAR_VLET_6.20_6_.jpg

    _MOLENAAR_VLET_6.20_7_.jpg - - Molenaar Vlet 6.20
    - - click pics to enlarge

    L 6.20 x B 2.20 x D 0.80 meter - 1974 Dutch built - mahogany on oak frames - clinker - copper riveted - 25 Hp Volvo diesel - exterior polyester finished, I guess later on in live and hope they mean epoxy... :eek:

    Cheers,
    Angel
     
  14. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    I guess I got it backward. I thought the higher the number the better, with 00 deg. being across the wind (a reach), and anything higher than that, made good, is windward progress. With about 45 deg, counted as at least decent upwind performance, and 90 deg. being dead up wind.

    Measuring the angle between tacks, I thought, is supposed to work the opposite way. The lower the number, the better the performance.

    If Sven's boat was making good 35 degrees up wind, the angle between tacks would be: (90 - 35) * 2 or 110 degrees. Now half of that would be 55 degrees.

    So, actually, we are in agreement. Sven's boat is delivering relatively poor windward performance.

    The importance of this fact is what is really open to debate.

    Making a boat actually sail in shallow water is no mean trick (with 'sailing' including ability to make windward progress). Getting it to merely float in it is an easier matter.

    I discovered by accident that my Siren 17 could sail up wind with the board fully retracted. This boat had no stub keel, but only a slight dead rise and a round turn at the bilge. I was quite surprised when it happened.

    The trick was to strike the jib, use the full main, and use the rudder with the blade swung up, parallel to the waterline. Such progress was quite poor, maybe as little as 20 deg. upwind (or 140 deg. tacks), but it was quite appreciated when sailing without an engine, as the boat was usually kept beached.

    I think there is little doubt that if he dispensed with the chine runner's and added lee boards, his windward performance would be much improved. The deep chines themselves might provide some windward performance, with the board retracted. Maybe, say 25 - 30 degrees (130 to 120 deg. tacks).

    This is the approach Phil Bolger would take. I know no design of his that uses chine runners. He usually uses end plates, and those are always on his shallow rudders.

    Sven has sacrificed maybe 10 deg. of windward performance to dispensed with retractable boards altogether. Maybe not a bargain you or I would make, but a defend able one, none the less.
     

  15. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    The boat is a fair sailing canoe. I have no argument there. However, the claim of the "greatest invention of the 20th century" is bunk.
     
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