cheap and simple rig

Richard, think somewhere you said a cat can have a used monohull rig but would need to be cut down 5%. Also restitch the sails, many used masts and sails available.

 

You might want to consider a Junk rig; they have a reputation of being fairly simple and can be made cheaply. (Though using modern materials will improve performance, and bring the price back in line with other rigs: They are 'cheap' because you can make a decent one with cheaper materials.)

Note that if you use the standard unstayed junk rig mast, your mast will actually have to be stronger, as it can't transfer the force to the stays.

 

I would also encourage you to consider a junk rig. I have built several for small dinghys and found they are easy to handle, raise and lower, and much easier to make. The forces are lower too so they can be made with less costly materials. the only area they suffer is their ability to point up wind.

I have no experience with them are larger sailboats (and I only have Bermuda rig experience there), but I understand they are popular with people that solo sail because they are much easier to handle, reef and will not flog.

good luck.

 

The Wharram wing rig has always worked very well (handling wise) on my tiki catamaran.
I cannot understand the complaint that the sleeve is sticking to the mast because the sleeve is very wide - not at all like a windsurf or laser sail.
I think that some people don't know that when hoisting and lowering a gaff sail you need to keep the peak of the gaff down. If you don't do that the hoisting will indeed be very difficult.

I do agree that a boomless sail is not always practical and I question the claimed efficiency of this rig, but the easy handling (hoisting and lowering without having to head into the wind - try that with fully battened bermudan) is a big bonus.

Regards,

Hans

 

Zilver

Did you check out the video link I posted earlier?

Goodwilltoall

Not sure in what context I would have said that. But for sure a multihull mast is a bigger section than a monohull on the same length boat. So a 35ft cat might use a 40ft monohull mast

Petros, DStaal

Even James Wharram couldn't get a junk rig to work on a catamaran

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

Hi Richard,

I just took a look at the video. That sail goes down very easy ! Are these special batten cars ? Because in my experience (with "normal/cheap" cars) they have a tendeny to jam whenever there's tension on the sail/batten.
Cheers, Hans

PS I like your Strike 18 trimaran a lot.

 

I don't know, it wasn't my boat. But they certainly weren't Harken Battcars or anything like that. Just what came with the mast. Cheap and cheerful would be my guess.

Sail and mast hardware has improved dramatically over the last few years

Glad you like my Strike design

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

bermuda rig

Richard,
a bermuda rig needs spreaders, shrouds, stags to name the most important ones and really some winches and all this stuff is necessary to get it efficient and its heavy and costs also.
Please try to think off the box.
A cat rig with wishbones f.e. is on step on the way to less, free standing rotating mast, no boom, no chain plates, less sails and winches, easy handling and I don't think that it isn't suitable for cruising. You should know who designed it.
Isn't it cheaper?
Second the wing sail rig, no spreaders, two winches only, less no. of sails.....

A cruising catamaran isn't a racer but there should be advantages in comparison to a mono hull. However, the reality is that they are mostly overloaded due to the lack of sufficient payload. This not only slows them down its dangerous, too.

I'm not talking about a junk rig which is for sure cheap and easy to handle but it is slow and again a catamaran should be faster than a mono hull to sail away from bad weather.

 

Works a treat in a flat calm. What would happen if they were running dead square in a 30 knot squall and had to take a reef? The main will be pressed hard against the shrouds and lazyjacks and will not come down without luffing almost head to wind (very noisy and potentially dangerous as the apparent wind increases) or a lot (ie winching) of load applied down the luff.

From http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=558912:
"A free standing carbon mast is the lightest, cheapest, least maintenance option for a new mast. The mast tube on the 15m in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA) weighs 120 kgs: 50 kgs of carbon ($50 per kg), 18 kgs of glass ($10/kg) and 52 kgs of resin ($18/kg). Materials cost $3,700. About another $1,000 for the consumables, bearings and all the fittings. Less than 100 hours work for the tube, using techniques similar to those used to build the rest of the boat. It is also the easiest to sail with."

The boat in the video has the same righting moment as a 12m/40' cruising cat for which an alloy mast with it's associated rigging also weigh 120 kgs. Unstayed masts work extremely well on multis. And monos, see http://www.wyliecat.com/models/wylie_30.html.

In the above squall scenario with a freestanding mast, the sheet can be eased until the main is dead downwind of the mast, so it is head to wind. It can then be easily lowered (gravity will suffice) or trimmed on just enough to keep the boat sailing safely in the desired direction. The same technique can be used for strong wind gybes.

rob

 

I have been sailing a freestanding mast with wrap around sail (giant luff pocket) for thirty years and have never had trouble reefing or lowering the sails on any point of sail. Although a round mast is not ideal it seems to me a Wharram like round mast and luff pocket gaff sail combination is as good or better than a fixed elliptical mast and full battened sail. If the mast is to rotate then I can not see why an egg shaped or elliptical mast with a luff pocket sould be markedly inferior to an elliptical mast with a track and battens.

 

For the record we were sailing offwind in 15 knots apparent. Only two winches are needed on multihulls under 35ft, even if you use a spinnaker and screecher. The 35ft cat I raced in the Swiftsure last week only had 2 winches

So if I understand it correctly a carbon mast costs USD3700 plus 100 hours labour. And somewhere I read that Rob charges USD1000 for the mast plans. Or maybe he now gives them away

But I didn't see the cost of the heel fittings, nor the deck partners, nor sail track, nor halyard turning blocks, nor lightning protection

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

If anyone can make a 50' carbon mast section for $4,000 I will place an order for 100 right now. Give me a week and I will likely double that order. This isn't just cheaper, it is so much cheaper as to be completely unbelievable.

 

Please don't patronise people by assuming that they can only think inside "the box". People choose bermudan rigs because they work better for many applications.

The idea that bermudan sloop rigs are inefficient and protected only by some mafia is easily disproven by looking at any rating rule. They have given other rigs allowances as high as 10%. Therefore if a designer thought that a gaff ketch, for example, was more efficient then he could design a boat that would have 10% MORE sail for the same rating. Y'know what, they don't....

Giving other rigs a big advantage is not exactly proof of a conspiracy. The fact that such rigs are normally uncompetitive on rating DESPITE the advantage is proof that they are NOT more efficient on such craft.

Stays are not expensive and from a non-engineer's viewpoint, something as cheap and simple as wire in tension appears to be an extremely elegant and effective way of holding up a structure.

Spreaders? I just had a set custom made for my 28 footer at a cost of $900. That's dirt cheap when you take into account that by using a standard bermudan rig, I have a wide choice of extremely effective and cheap second-hand sails. Every time I score a bargain sail, I save more than that $900. And of course I could have economised further on that set of spreaders if I wanted to.

Chainplates can be easy; my old ones were stainless straps with an eye in the end, resting on wooden pads. Total cost, probably $200. Chainplates can also be as simple as strands or carbon or kevlar formed into a rounded Vee shape, with lashings leading to the stays for adjustment - almost certainly cheaper than the rotating steps and rotation controls on the boats we've owned and sailed, which are inherently much more complex.

Why does a wishbone on a freestanding mast reduce the number of sails?

In what way is the Bermuda rig more dependent on winches than any other rig of similar efficiency? A modern short-overlap bermudan rig is so easy to tack that in smaller designs you can easily get away with very little use of sheet winches upwind.

Pocket luffs or rotating masts? In practice the aerodynamic advantages seem to show up only in specific situations, and rarely are they the ones involving cruising.

By the way, in case you want to dismiss me as one of those inside a box, the current spars at my place include about 8 wishbones, 4 carbon masts and an alloy one for freestanding large-pocket-luff fully-battened cat rigs, 3 'glass ones for freestanding pocket-luff short-batten cat rigs, 3 alloy rotating wing masts for sloops, one carbon/alloy standard sloop mast for a canoe, and 2 freestanding alloy pocket luff masts for cat rigs. There's also a large wishbone bermudan cat in the family. So there's no box here - just a recognition that bermudan sloop rigs really work well a lot of the time and that, not some conspiracy or closed minds, is the reason they dominate.

 

Gooday there 'CT' You're a super-star for sure. You've all the masts, rigs, sails, & all the rest of the goodies. You've put yourself 'up-there' as knowing a whole lot more than everyone else in this forum. Thanks so much for your great valuable knowledge.

If you leave us with all that knowledge for at least 10 months - we'll get back to you . Don't phone us - we'll phone you - now here's you hat, coat & your mobile & there's the door. Bye now. Wheeew !!!

Problem isn't your knowledge it's you manners - as your post - is not polite - nor is it written in any way to assist 'sailor305' - who unlike you is not nor was not in any way - being - condescending nor patronising. What 'sailor305' was & is doing is asking a question - a simple polite question. I'd suggest if you - like some others in here - can't say anything helpful to assist 'sailor305' to gain more knowledge & be able to make a better informed decission then - please feel very free to - go to another forum. Be buggered if I'd ever ask you anything - except - - - to leave.

Your rant - SUCKS take it somewhere else please & thank-you. I had forgotten that we have such rude people here in this country.

Did someone steel your 'Weetbix' or your 'dummy' this morning ??? Ciao, jj

 

Gooday bloke - 'sailor305'. I & I'm sure some others in here got your question. Please excuse those that are rude - many OZies are very nice & polite persons & have enough experience to answer your - well put & polite question - without resorting to rude attitude & atrocious manners.

Now - not all 'bermudian rigs' are as low-tech, expensive nor lacking in efficiency - as you may have been lead to believe. Take an example of a 56' alloy mast - squashed to be a little 'flatter' or slightly more air-foil shaped than what was available back then - when it was being constructed & rigged in 1967. I guess it's - the only one that 'C-T' doesn't own. It's a rotating mast, (the whole foot rotating mechanics - cost $100 bucks completely fitted). Said mast had a 500 sq ft - fully battened mainsail fitted to it. Said mast, main, jib, rig & boat sailed for over 30 years - at the front of the fleet - thank-you very much. Said mast had 1 set of side spreaders - 12" long - @ a cost of $70 bucks each ( Hey 'C-T' maybe we should have paid $900 & been ripped-off by the same person as got at your pocket & ate your Weetbix). The mast had 3 main stays - 1 fore-stay & 2 side-stays - swiveled through 160* & showed no adverse wear & tear after 30 years of sailing & racing.

40' cat 650 sq ft total sail area - 1 mast winch + 2 side winches worked great for 30 plus years. I do recall that is was no slouch either racing or cruising. Sure could have done with 2 more winches though.

Main point here is that 'bermudian' rigs & many other rigs are - what they are - - if well designed, mechanically sound & well constructed - can be expected to preform & last - very well indeed.

As 'C-T' has said - 'bermudian rigs' are - just fine thank you & will continue to be so for many many years to come. Ciao, james