Cavalier 26, Rudder

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by O_Smiladon, Apr 28, 2021.

  1. O_Smiladon
    Joined: Apr 2021
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    Location: Auckland New Zealand

    O_Smiladon Junior Member

    Hi Guys,

    I wanna take my retro fitted transom hung rudder back to the original, which was damaged somehow?? Reason being that i do not think that it is fit for purpose. The owner i bought the yacht of did not put the sails up and just cruised around on the motor which is fine. but as soon as the sails go up and the boat starts to heel over i think that what i have will be useless.

    I have a Cavalier 26 1978 model.

    The original looked like this .

    Ii have found and bought this. to see if i can make it work?? will need a little bit of a reshape and I think i can make it happen.,

    (Pictures in line from my text)

    What are your guys thoughts.

    Cheers guys

    Steve
     

    Attached Files:

  2. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Welcome to the Forum OS.
    You mention
    Why do you think it will be useless? What happens when you are sailing along, and the boat heels in a gust?

    Re the rudder that you bought, what type / size of yacht was it designed / built for originally?
    Do you still have a vertical tube in the hull for the old rudder stock?
    If so, is it the same diameter approx as the stock on the rudder that you bought?
     
  3. O_Smiladon
    Joined: Apr 2021
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    Location: Auckland New Zealand

    O_Smiladon Junior Member

    Hey Bajansailor,
    Thanks for coming back to me.
    I just feel if i go over on a say 15 degree heel that rudder will come out of the water. It not very far in past the waterline.
    No I do not know much about the rudder i got. When I get the boat out of the water on the 8th of may. I guess all will be reviled. I am not sure if the old hole is there or not. most likely glassed over i reckon. I know I could be up for a bit of work.It will be out of the water for 3-4 months while i work on her. I am not afraid of the work ahead as i am pretty hand with all sorts of things like this
    Cheers mate
    Steve
     
  4. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    It sounds like you have not actually been out sailing with her yet - at least not in enough wind to get her to heel to 15 degrees?
    How deep is the rudder in the water when she is level?

    If you are worried about the existing rudder not being long enough, it might be easier to lengthen this rudder, rather than (re)installing a new inboard rudder?

    It might be better to conduct some (more) sailing trials first with the boat before you start to make major alterations?
     
  5. wet feet
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    wet feet Senior Member

    It appears that the hull has sprouted a small skeg over the area where the rudder tube would have originally been.The builder's original rudder looks properly designed and has an element of balance in it's arrangement.Without information about the comparative depths of the original and the replacement it s difficult to form an opinion about whether the current rudder is likely to be deep enough.The advantage that the later rudder does have is that it is a bit further from the CLR and this increases the turning moment it is able to exert.Which is a good reason to go with the suggestion to modify the current rudder to get the steering control you believe is probably lacking.
     
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  6. kapnD
    Joined: Jan 2003
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    Location: hawaii, usa

    kapnD Senior Member

    The added “skeg “ that Wet Feet refers to looks to be cracking off already, might not be too big a job to remove it.
    Get inside the transom and have a look, if the original rudder tube/seal is still in place, you might be able to reuse it, but it would be advantageous to find out why the location was changed. Such maneuvers are often the result of severe damage to original equipment.
    The rudder you have acquired may /may not be of any use, you’ve got to do some research first.
     
  7. O_Smiladon
    Joined: Apr 2021
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    Location: Auckland New Zealand

    O_Smiladon Junior Member

    Hi Bajansailor,

    You are right in the fact that I have not been out in her as yet. I have had to put a new throttle/gear change levers on her as the key way in the old on fell out and lost. I put a new one on last weekend.
    She is coming out of the water as i mentioned. Giving her a big birthday and bring her into the 2021's instead of sitting in 1978 haha.
    The rudder on her now I would say is about 500mm into the water give or take. And I am leaning towards maybe making better whats already there but also working towards bringing her back to an inboard type later on in the piece .
    With the rudder I have bought of TradeMe (NZ's version of Ebay) it was cheap enough so i went for it. thinking I may at least be able to use some parts of it, if not all of it.
    When she does come out of the water I will put some more pictures up to show you guys and get your opinions.
    My building experience certainly out ways my sailing , but I will be taking courses and get my skippers licence plus I have a few friends that are very experienced with sailing. I bought her to sail around Auckland's Hauraki gulf and overnight stays in little bays that we are so lucky to have around the city I live in.
    Her name is Soulmate and i am very excited on my new Journey with her.
    Thanks mate
    Steve
     
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  8. O_Smiladon
    Joined: Apr 2021
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    Location: Auckland New Zealand

    O_Smiladon Junior Member

    Hi Wet feet,

    Yeah from what i have found out from the old owner that the original in board rudder was damaged some how and the transom one was done.
    From the picture that shows the original rudder, I reckon the builder has followed that line up to the back of the transom and used that for the bottom part of the attachment for the rudder that's there.
    when you say CLR sorry and excuse my naivety what are you referring to ?
    I will be interesting to see whats been actually done to compensate what was originally there.

    Cheers mate
    Steve
     
  9. O_Smiladon
    Joined: Apr 2021
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    Location: Auckland New Zealand

    O_Smiladon Junior Member

    Hi KapnD

    Yes once she is out of the water haha I will be scraping sanding away and i believe that will show a great deal. I will get up under there and see if a tube still exists and if so woop woop battle 1/2 won I believe. But As I mentioned to Bajansailor I may just make better whats there and look at whats in front of me to take her back. I might do a NZ summer with whats there and during that time compile all I need to take her back. The picture of the original rudder I know the guy and his boat is coming out of the water in September and he is happy for me to get measurements and dimension of his boat.

    Cheers mate
    Steve
     
  10. wet feet
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    wet feet Senior Member

    CLR is the Centre of Lateral Resistance and while it may not be precisely the point that the boat pivots on when turning,it is a conventional approximation to work with.By having a rudder located further from it you are increasing the turning moment by exerting a force at a greater distance.The relevant point is to determine whether your rudder has sufficient area to provide that force and your figure for the amount immersed makes that questionable.A short test sail will soon give the answer to that question.
     
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  11. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    I would agree with WF - please do take her for a test sail first before you commit to such drastic alterations.

    You might well find that the rudder works ok where it is - and if it needs to be larger, it might be easier to simply take it off and lengthen it, rather than install a new inboard rudder.
     
  12. ExileMoon
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    ExileMoon Junior Member

    I think it was probably when you were sailing (downwind) that the bow was pressed down by the wind, which caused the stern to tilt up, and the rudder was also lifted, resulting in too little immersion in the water and rudder efficiency failure.

    And your original rudder is installed on the bottom of the boat, so it can always be immersed in the water, so there is no such problem.

    The solution, I think, is to either repair the original rudder, or deepen the new rudder hanging outside the tailgate.
     
  13. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Okay, I am no sailor, but pretty sure I saw some calc on rudder area.

    Isn't there some math work here?

    calculate the rudder area at rest, then the rudder at heel or rudder with 500# on the bow-surely there must be some standards and the offset of excess rudder is a wee bit of drag, so even that would he quantifiable I'd say
     
  14. O_Smiladon
    Joined: Apr 2021
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    Location: Auckland New Zealand

    O_Smiladon Junior Member

    Hey guys,
    Thanks all for your input.
    Boat come out of the water tomorrow 8th May.
    So looking forward to this day. I am either gonna cry, gringe, smile , or think what have i done lol. either way I am in for the long haul now. I will take heaps of photos and post them up as i begin the process.
    Cheers guys
    Steve
     

  15. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    I am baffled OS - why did you not even take the boat out for a trial sail first to see how she behaves with the existing rudder?
     
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