Catamaran plans, who have I forgotten ?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by guzzis3, Apr 4, 2023.

  1. waterbear
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    waterbear Senior Member

    Best to ask Richard rather than write those designs off, especially gypsy.

    Sorry, I changed it. (edit: I didn't think this was an issue because your real name is posted other places, and I wasn't associating your real name with username directly.)

    Sorry, I thought you had mentioned making the hulls narrower? Also your boat doesn't look like the drawing, so I assumed there were other things going on. Either way it's sad to see you having these issues after working so hard to build such a beautiful boat.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
  2. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Gypsy is slim on the waterline. It's only 2' shorter than Scorpio but the hull bottoms are much slimmer.

    Very roughly measuring off the study plan Gypsy is about 11.5 - 11.6 :1 on the waterline. Scorpio is about 10.6:1. WLL Scorpio 8.55 Gypsy 8.1. Doesn't sound like much but the volume increases with width depth and length so you get a bigger displacement. 15% wider, 5% longer, approximate draft 70% without keels although that probably includes the mini keels on the daggerboard Javelin and Sagitta. I don't have a proper drawing for Scorpio so I've only the stated numbers to go on.

    Anyway it adds up...

    Mr Woods quotes 1800 kg for the 3 30' boats and the 28' gypsy. There would have to be variations but it's hard to say how much. The design displacements are as follows:

    Gypsy 2400
    Scorpio 3300
    Javelin 2500
    Sagitta 2700

    As I've said previously 3 displacements for the same hull. I don't know why but I'm working off his figures. These numbers are the basis for my reasoning.
     
  3. waterbear
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    waterbear Senior Member

    The simplest explanation is Richard chose a different waterline and is Scorpio is sitting lower in the water. Javelin has daggerboards, which means the owners should care more about performance and should be more careful not to overload the boat. Whereas Scorpio has LAR keels, performance is less important so perhaps it's better to emphasize load carrying? Also the LAR keels themselves would account for some of this discrepancy. This is just a guess, obviously you would need to ask Richard.

    Otherwise I think Richard expects his boats will be somewhat overloaded at the beginning of a long passage, and designs accordingly.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2023
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  4. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    EXACTLY !
    Assumption is the mother of many a screw up, including that the builder knows more than the designer. So many overbuilt boats because your boat sails in the world’s roughest oceans ! Bahahaha
    Don’t assume or guess, ask the designer.
     
  5. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

  6. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

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  7. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

  8. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

  9. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

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  10. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    The Simpson looks a nice boat - but of course looks can be deceiving.
    Out of all the boats you mentioned I don't think you can beat a Gypsy for space vs simplicity vs build time cost etc. There is easily room to have a goodsized head and separate shower in one hull and a galley and dinette in the other leaving the pod to be arranged around your sleeping requirements. Sure you can go bigger but it will invariably cost more and take longer as you well know.
     
  11. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    The Simpson is BIG. I expect it will go quickly at that price. Now I'm blind I can't just jump in the car. I'd need to get someone to drive me. Caboolture is 85 kms a good hour each way if you don't hit any catastrophic traffic.

    Scorpio and Gypsy are very similar. Scorpio is 2' longer, same headroom, but wider on the waterline. The woods website quotes the same weight for Gypsy with cuddy and Scorpio without, so that's going to be an indication of the build time and cost. Rig is bigger but difference isn't that huge.

    Mr Woods hasn't got back to me, and of course I'm still keeping an eye on boats for sale. It's the usual story. Overpriced and awful boats linger on market, anything priced well and worth having goes quick. Unless that Simpson is a wreck it'll be sold in no time.

    Facebook marketplace is astoundingly bad. Search catamaran that boat doesn't show. Search sailboat, trimaran, yacht, nup. The only reason I saw it at all is it popped up at random at my marketplace home page. It amazes me how hopeless they are...
     
  12. jamez
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    jamez Senior Member

    "Overpriced and awful boats linger on market, anything priced well and worth having goes quick".
    Sounds very much like the market here although we have far fewer multihull choices in NZ. I finally bought a new main for the trimaran - been running on (good) used items up till now. If the weather would only settle down, its been like the anti-summer here.

    The Woods 30 range offers some interesting choices. I always liked the idea of a Scorpio done with the daggerboards and big rig of the Javelin. Now I'm a bit older the bridgedeck cabin of the Sagitta gets my vote. Richards original dagger version of the Sagitta is a real honey of a boat - I see he's just bought it back too.

    As a number of these designs are no longer on RWs site I've scanned the following from an old catalogue for anyone wondering what is being referred to. I await with interest to see what you arrive at.

    Javelin (Medium).jpg Sagitta (Medium).jpg Scorpio (Medium).jpg Symphony (Medium).jpg
     
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  13. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    Thank you for the scans. Very interesting, I'd not seen those before.

    The old site exists:

    25-30' catamarans by Woods Designs (sailingcatamarans.com)

    In the movie Mr Woods made, available on youtube, there is a passing mention of a version of Javelin/Scorpio/Sagitta with a standing room bridgedeck cabin but I can't remember the name and do not recall any other reference to it. They all use the same hulls. The bridgedecks vary, with Javelin not having the protrusions onto the bridgedeck, daggers, bigger rig and there is mention of it being demountable. Measuring off the website the hull is 1.4m even without the protrusions (visible in the Scorpio picture above). Scorpio has LAR keels smaller rig and more accomodations, and of course a much bigger payload. Sagitta I think was always offered with keels or boards a choice of rigs etc, but he mentions somewhere that he was the only one who ever built one with daggers. Everyone else went for LAR keels on Sagitta.

    I am interested to hear about your new sail. It will be good to hear how much difference it makes.
     
  14. guzzis3
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    guzzis3 Senior Member

    I broke down and messaged the owner about the Simpson 40. Double diagonal, ply, gutted for restoration.
     

  15. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Guzzi3, you should accept the fact you are cursed and must have a ply boat. To minimize the pain buy that TriStar 27-9 and use latex paint on the interior. Then it will smell like the land dwelling, not wood and you may actually get on the water.
    Just a suggestion of course.
     
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