Cartopable 3-Person Sailing+Rowing Canoue/Dinghy

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by feunatz, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. feunatz
    Joined: Nov 2016
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    Location: Austria

    feunatz Junior Member

    I'm on the lookout for am spring project. Thread title seems somewhat impossible? But 3 Person is more 2.5 and the usage is just for getting around the local lake an not have to row/motor all the time...

    Basics:
    -Max weight without rig/removeable ballast: 75Kg(165lbs)
    -Load capacity: 2Adults+1Child ~210Kg
    -Rowable + sailable +(maybe motor mount)

    First idea was to use a Canoue design + transom for possible ob. Add outrigger floats + daggerboard.

    EMC 16+2 by Warren Messer
    Duckworks - http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/13/designs/emc-16plus2/
    and either one optimist rig with jib or two optimist rigs

    Or should i go a totally different route?
     
  2. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

    what kind of car and how do you plan on getting it up and down?
    I'm thinking 165lbs is a lot even if you always have two fairly strong people on either side, or front and back.
    Probably a lot easier if its a wagon and you can lift the bow onto the racks then slide forward. Use launching wheels at transom.

    Consider carrying it right side up so you can use the boat to carry light bulky objects.
     
  3. Squidly-Diddly
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    Squidly-Diddly Senior Member

     
  4. feunatz
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    feunatz Junior Member

    It's a Wagon with roof Rack and i do plan to carry it exactly as you described. Maybe even with the floats attached(retracted to the main hull) if weight permits.
    For the outriggers i'd like to use Aluminum poles so the floats can slide in and out. maybe even do 2 very small trampolines.
     
  5. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    What about a Mirror dinghy? And I agree, you need to keep hull weight under 50kgs or you will want a trailer. A Laser is car toppable, but most trail theirs (in part because you can then launch it singlehanded, generally you need two to put a boat on a roof). or my Duo dinghy of course Sailing Catamarans - Duo 10ft Sail/Row Dinghy (nesting option) http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/46-beach-cats-and-dinghies/420-duo-10ft-sailrow-dinghy or maybe Linnet? Sailing Catamarans - Linnet 16ft seaworthy rowing boat http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs-2/46-beach-cats-and-dinghies/3-linnet

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
     
  6. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Check out Richards Duo dinghy. While he politely suggest two other options, I know from experience that they wont be a solution.

    I bought the plans for Richards Duo, and its a great solution for what you are describing.
     
  7. feunatz
    Joined: Nov 2016
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    feunatz Junior Member

    Thanks for your advice. The Duo looks very promising.
    In Rowing mode i've imagined more 2person paddling. I've allready looked at the mirror but ruled it out for stability reasons. The Duo with external buoyancy and maybe a little weight in the daggerboard looks like a safer platform.
    Just a little small for 2,5 but if I devide against the "multihull" approach definitely a great solution.

    any thoughts on mounting 2 optimist rigs on a canou?
    I do like the sprit rig for its short mast and availability - everything in a bag one purchase and go.

    Any ideas on similar rigs available in europe?
    Neil Pryde has some nice(larger) pram sails but no complete rig
    Neil Pryde Sails International Pram sails https://www.neilprydesails.com/shop/pram
    maybe 65sqft and add a jib
     
  8. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Thank you for considering the Duo. It can convert to a Tryst trimaran. It will row/motor with three large adults quite safely, but not for sailing. Which makes me wonder:- If you have a necessarily short, cartoppable canoe how will you arrange two rigs AND fit three people on board???

    I used to sail a Mirror many years ago. I thought one reason for its success was because it was so stable.

    Richard Woods
     
  9. feunatz
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    feunatz Junior Member

    Sorry if I'm missing the obvious - Why not for sailing?

    for example on a 15-16ft canoe and two optimist rigs I'd place the first mast as close to the bow as possible, second with roughly 210cm spacing. Center of both mast schould end up slighly(60-80cm) forward of the boats center. Ocupants would have to duck under the booms like in an conventional dinghy(1,5 under the front and one sitting under the aft mast). on close haul occupants would have to scoot a bit windwards.

    If i'd go with a larger main + jib. 1-2 could sit directly in front of the mast. To make it even more comfortable for them the jib could be hauled on the outside during maneuvers.
     
  10. AnthonyW
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    AnthonyW Senior Member

    Dinghies

    I would imagine a trimaran may be difficult to row. May I suggest looking at designs by Selway-Fisher. Highlander 12 seems ideal if you want to build one. Stitch and tape. Rows, sails, motors, and light enough to car top I would imagine. And plenty build. Northhumbrian 12.6 also might be of interest for all those functions. Or the Highlander 14 might be an option. Might be a nice alternative to the Mirror.

    Selway Fisher Home Page http://www.selway-fisher.com

    There is a yahoo building group with various builds and galleries which is quite interesting. I am sure some Highlanders will be there under construction or showing one having been build.

    Small trimarans

    I am (very slowly!) building the "Windrush" as a Trimaran sailing boat, with the option for it be single hull rower if needs be. Been super easy to build so far. Supposed to be a rowing boat but Paul has modified the design a bit for me.

    Just for interest, the Solway Dory - Osprey is a lovely looking trimaran sailing canoe. Not sure how practical to paddle in dead wind with the outriggers though. Think most tris' would battle here. Might be a bit tight for 2 & 1/2.

    For fun look at Frank Smoot's stuff on DIY tris. Some of his little trimarans seem quick enough on the vidoes, and are very simply build. Might give some ideas. Length to car top might be interesting, but they are light and fun it seems. New Page 1 http://www.diy-tris.com/ Some are 19 and 24 feet. I think plans are on Duckworths. Should be easy to modify the plans.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  11. feunatz
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    feunatz Junior Member

    The Highlander 14 looks very nice on the upper limit for weight but pretty comfortable option. 2rowing benches would be a great option to get trough calms.

    The Windrush looks like a larger version of what i had originally in mind(EMC 16+2) very interesting - how far are you along? any Pictures? Have you decided on what rig to use and Centerboard or Leeboards?

    Looking at DIY-TRIS
    http://www.diy-tris.com/diy-tri_images/24 footer underway Oct 2012.jpg
    this looks somewhat like what i have in mind - just alot smaller.

    One thing i go back regulary is the Trika540 by Klaus Metz
    Metz Boats - Trika 540 Kayak-Trimaran http://www.metzboats.de/htm/designs/multihulls/trika540/trika540.htm
    To my eye - crazy handsome, but a bit to much of a performance boat for my use.
    To fit my bill I'd have to make it mostly open top to carry the people and higher freeboard for a little dryer experience. And increase the load capcity by 20-40kg
    Sounds doable?
    Originally i wanted to mount the floats on aluminum poles trough the hull and whole legth of the beam, for transport exchange the with short ones to get the floats directly to the hull. But the folding mechanism of the Trika would also be a very elegant solution.
     
  12. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    You're getting away from your stated design aims - Car Toppable, Motor Mount, Rowable.
     
  13. AnthonyW
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    AnthonyW Senior Member

    The Windrush will be car toppable within some limits (depending on your countries limit of length) on its own. If you look at the pics on the Selway Fisher site that is my boat. I have sheathed it in glass, and added gunwales. I have fairing to do, and I am waiting on closed cell foam for bulkheads. There is a very helpful company in Cape Town that sells offcuts, and they will have a batch in late Jan. I will use this for bulkheads and seating. (Worth noting that certain foams don't bond with epoxy....I am sitting on a bunch of foam from another company that will now just be filling bouyancy for the seats.).

    Back to car toppable - if one adds thin outriggers it would be doable in a push. But you will likely add two free standing masts on top. And a tiller. It will get a bit crowded on there. I know you Americans have big cars, but it could end up being a game of car Tetris.

    I bought an old micro catamaran (13 feet) to use as trial outriggers (aka). Joining will be via aluminium poles (called amas). Similar to your idea. It will via epoxy and cloth, and it will not likely be very elegant. But now I have a trailer I can modify for all three hulls. Old catamarans can be cheap if you don't plan to use their masts and their rigging is in poor condition. Plus one gets a steering set that can be modified to connect to the central hull. Though I have not thought through all the logistics of this. But it is a major plus. Free tillers and attachments. I looked for one without much rocker, but purely for aesthetics. Bananas as outriggers did not appeal. And 16ft outriggers way more than I needed. Keep in mind your wetted surface area increases with big outriggers, and other dynamics come into play, but if sounds like this is boat for a nice fun sail, with the option to paddle or row on calm days.

    Better outriggers with less volume would be easily made. Selway-Fisher also sell this with plans for leeboards etc that can fit one of their canoes. Should not be hard to modify. Look easy to build. Looking on the last post on their sailing canoes. I have approximated the shape of my boat using bulkheads with stitching and will probably build it ply and foam on frame using this. Simply downsizing and keeping the length. (Before I get quoted on how this will not be the most efficient - I know - but aesthetics are important, and it is not for racing - and on this size it would play a massive role ) But I want to see how the boat behaves first. I won't be using a dam. Calm bay waters. These better outriggers on the site might fit on the car top or inside the canoe. Easier ones can be made with thick foam and glass - with ply recessed in areas for the connectors for re-enforcing. It seems shaping foam is not too tricky (not done it myself). So you could get a nice shape. Foam seriously pricey here though in that sort of quantity, so not an option for me. I am sure someone on the forum could help with cloth weight and extra margins of safety. Frank Smoot's site might also lend some ideas.

    On the making - we have a CNC company in Cape Town - so I took the electronic file of the plans and they cut the planks out for me from Marine Ply. Saves a bucket load of work. I love woodwork - but I have time constraints. And then it is guarenteed to fit together perfectly. Worth some thought.

    Sooner or later someone on the forum is going to suggest getting a long canoe and modifying this with PVC pipe outiggers, shaped at the end with foam and glassed. And seeing how this goes and if it works as an idea. It might be a great suggestion. But adding leeboards and steering will take some thought and work. So this wouldn't be a one weekend project. Nonetheless give this some long hard thought if you are not doing this for the build. It was my first option, but no decent canoe presented itself where I live. And I wants a bit of a V hull to minimise on leeboards. Others on this forum can advise if this might track a little sideways on a breach without this. Depends if this is a messing about boat or not. Not for me - I want to build one boat and hope it works in the roles I want. I don't have a lot of free time. But if this will be used twenty times - and you are not into building - then you may want to think on this.

    I like pretty looking displacement boats - hence Windrush. But for those with different tastes a long motor canoe would be slightly easier to build, might have more volume and would look nice. Other canoes Paul offers would also make nice central hulls, with less taping. He didn't charge me much to modify. He has some other really nice looking hulls.

    Youtube is great for videos on stitch and tape and sheathing. Kayak videos are great for the concept and little tips - like old bank cards for hand lay up and getting epoxy into the cloth. Just a thought - the first stages of stitching, sheathing and fairing go fast. With a table saw bulkheads and seats should be quick. Fixtures might take more time than all this together. So this is not a short project. Time on the lake with a normal canoe might crystalise the mind in either direction (to build this, or simply make a rowing motor canoe and do some electric trolling if the wind picks up).

    If you do go ahead - can I really recommend you use epoxy. Just much healthier and easier, and bonds to wood better. You can make fillet paste with cooking flour. Fumed silica is just incredibly messy, and has health considerations, and what you are building is not going to be for winning races. It works really well too. Saves a bit of money. Apologies if I am speaking to the converted.

    If you do buy his plans, I have found Paul helpful on thickness of ply and cloth to use. He is not terribly chatty, but hundreds of his boats and canoes have been made, and he will give you some guidance. He also has DVDs I think, but I have just used Youtube.

    As to leeboards, mine will connect to the amas, as will some seating, so in trimaran format you sit on cross boards between the amas, with feet inside the boat. I haven't figured it all out yet. Two keels on the outriggers may negate the need for this, but probably not. Mine will two sail ketch rig, similar to Solway Dory Osprey. Unstayed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  14. AnthonyW
    Joined: Oct 2012
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    AnthonyW Senior Member

    At risk of stating the obvious - but keep in mind your design will likely have free standing masts. The base area and slot will need some thought upfront. Placement is of interest for sailing balance, but there is plenty on this forum for that.
     
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  15. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The Duo is 10 feet long, which is cartoppable. Richard wouldn't want you sailing with 3 people because of all the ducking under the boom. Someone would get beaned. I don't think he can answer right now as he is super busy.

    Any sailboat that is cartoppable is pushing the limits at 3 adults. I mean, sure, you can get a biggerish boat on top of a car, say a canoe, but safely operating a tiny sailboat with 3 people safely is going to be rather tricky.
     
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