Carbon3 trimaran from Nigel Irens

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by cardsinplay, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    Don't look now, but the Danes are building what promises to be one very quick, all-carbon trimaran. They have assembled an all-star team of desin personnel with the key design stroke being supplied by Nigel Irens, head honcho for IDEC, Sodeb'O and Ellen MacArthur's sailing accomplishments. They do have a website up and running here:http://www.carbon3.dk/ The site is mostly in Danish and right now, it's kind of lacking in imagery and info. Google can provide a decent translation from Danish to English, so you can read what the Danes have to say about theri own project.

    One very interesting note is that right now, the boat does not look to be getting any curved lifting foils in the amas. It may have the structural facility for them later, but none of the renderings show that, at present.

    This is a totally no-frills trimaran with nothing inside for comfort and the boat is fixed in beam with no capability for folding. Because of this, it will be all about the business of going as fast as possible with the minimum in weight to drag around. If you take the link below to the magazine article, over on the right hand side of the page is a series of related articles, also in Danish, but full of photos and more detailed descriptions as they moved along their design and build path this past year.


    Here's a translation of the latest article in a Danish sailing mag. http://minbaad.dk/sejl/archive/2010/21/november/article/carbon3-bliver-til-noget/


    Carbon3 Becomes Something

    21-11-2010 17:06 Race Team Carbon3 promised to sail Palby Fyn Cup 2010, but was not ready. Jacob Groth and people behind it now expects to be ready in February. See also Filsø's flippant video greeting.

    by Troels Lykke

    "We have recently seen that people who take an interest in our boat and exciting project, has asked whether the project had been stopped," says co-owner of Carbon3 Project Jacob Groth.

    "It is by no means the case, on the contrary, we work centered on the project and can now see that trimarans really takes shape," he says.

    "We are waiting to be finished by the total carbon structure around Christmas, after which the final outfitting must be done, hopefully towards that we can have a finished boat in February, in time for the upcoming season. We let the weather determine when we launches, but hope to get a chance to try the boat from the early years, "says Jacob Groth.

    Greater complexity than anticipated

    The reason that the project has been delayed over this season has clearly demonstrated that we have not wanted to go to any compromise with the boat, and complexity of such a design is much bigger than a keelboat of similar size, says Yard, who explains further.

    One must also remember that although James Frost and Jonas Pedersen from Tuco Marine is very experienced boatbuilders, this is a private project and our ability to speed up boat building, without compromise, therefore, very limited.

    "We are therefore satisfied with the status of the project now that we have just inserted the last joist and the main structure, therefore, is finished. It gives us good rest and chance to make the equipment over the next måneder.Vi look forward to get on the water and challenge things, "says Jacob Frost.

    About Carbon3:

    Carbon3 is a carbon fiber trimaran with the following specifications:

    Length: 40 feet

    Width: 9.8 meters

    Mainsail: 80m2

    Jib: 35m2

    Code 0: 99 m2

    Genakker: 140m2

    Material: Carbon Sandwich

    Design: Nigel Irene.

    Boat builders: James Frost / Jonas Pedersen, Tuco Marine Group.

    Owners / idegruppe: Jacob Groth / Jakob Frost / Jonas Pedersen.

    Website: www.carbon3.dk


    For the more technical include:

    A rotating carbon wing mast set up as canting rig, 1:1 Reff locks the boom halyard lock's in mast down in tack to Furling Code Zero and Furling Genakker who "runs" on bowsprit and 100% Solent and ORC to UpWind constitutes, in its whole "machinery".

    With a hull platform with 100% carbon giving a total weight of 1,800 kg. on a 40 foot's waterline, calculations show a "flying" the main hull on a reach at 6 knots, the wind and up wind in 9 knots.

    "We are waiting to be finished by the total carbon structure around Christmas" , says Team Carbon3
     

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  2. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    If being built to a purpose without compromise equals beauty then it is a very beautiful trimaran I like their no nonsense racing machine approach. Looking forward to seeing this boat on the water.
     
  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Carbon 3

    Here is a rendering showing angled boards in the amas-sure to generate some vertical lift. Most high performance tri's these days use some form of foil to create vertical lift and this boat is no exception. Curved foils were originally conceived of so that the retracted foil didn't exceed the overall beam of the boat(ORMA 60) thus violating the rule. This boat is not being done to a rule ,as best as I can tell, so that is not a consideration. Looks like a really cool design!

    click on image:
     

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  4. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    I have a better image where one doesn't need to guess as to how much angle there might be in the daggerboard mounting. See post #1.

    Even when this boat has its main hull flying and just kissing the wave tops, the amount of vertical lift to be gained will be but a very small amount compared to the overall lift to windward. Below is a graphic representation of the C3 when heeled to starboard by an amount of 8 degrees. This brings the bow line created by the ama to a vertical orientation. When set in this fashion, the daggerboard is measured at 15 degrees of angle to the vertical. By design, this is an optimal orientation of the ama to the oncoming water

    If one looks at the two most recent multihulls that have angled foils from straight boards (L'Hydroptere and White Dragons) we see that they have their foils angled at right about 45 degrees to generate the kind of lift needed to fly the boat. For the C3 to get to that 45 degree mark, it would have to be flown at a heel angle 30 degrees greater than it is shown (8 degrees of heel static)

    Everything less than that 30 degrees of additional heel is less vertical lift and more windward lift like a traditional daggerboard. Since we don't see a main hull daggerboard on this design in any of the renderings, I will assume that the leeway resistance component is being generated by the ama mounted boards.

    It's pretty simple after the angle analysis in the image below and the obvious mission requirements, that Irens was not going for much in the way of vertical lift with this boat and that the boards are very clearly and strongly biased to behaving as windward lift daggerboards rather than vertical lifting daggerboards.

    Irens is probably suggesting that he is less concerned with the reduced wetted surface function of vertical lift than he is with making this boat have great windward, as well as offwind, sailing power.
     

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  5. RHP
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    RHP Senior Member

    Serious niche business and I hate to think of the price. I wonder how many they'll make?
     
  6. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut

    Nigel Irens is developing new ways of thinking.

    If you look at the C3 design and compare this to Phil Stegals new 42' Trimaran (that has Irens influences too due to good contacts and knowlege transfer, even if the executing designer is a newcomer) it is obvious that Irens is "Rewinding the Power Spiral" in designing his new boats. (See Idec and its sistership)

    It is said on the Stegall homepage that Irens is now designing slimmer, lower resistance hulls (especially the amas, settling the volume at max 240%) without lifting foils. The wheigt reduction of the smaller surfaces and the missing wheight and drag of the "gimmicks" seems to have a very positive effect on performance. The question is ... is it equal to the more powerful foilers and fat 300% ama arrangement???

    Hopefully, because I like simple and cheaper boats (Sorry Doug Lord:D)

    Grreeetings from the North Sea Coast, Michel
     
  7. luckystrike
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    luckystrike Power Kraut

    The Danes are mainly sailing on the Baltic Sea and there are a lot of long distance races around danish isles that all have a multihull class. The C3 will be for that purpose.

    Much bigger boats don't make sence there because the bridges over the smaller navigable waters have a hight of max. 23 Metres.

    Michel
     
  8. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    I wonder those things, as well. If you take the link to the magazine article provided above and look at the related article links off to the right side of the page, one of those articles shows a full-on, 5th wheel style caravan (camper trailer) that is designed to be towed behind a large semi-tractor cab unit. That camper, alone, is some serious money business and suggests that they plan to haul this boat all over the place in Europe in order to enter the C3 in a series of races.

    Those boys have a serious sponsor with deep pockets to front all these cool goodies. Below is a translation of the camper sub-article with a photo of the rig about to roll out the door:

    Carbon3 city Tuco now with giant camper

    Equipment 26-02-2010 10:20 Carbon3 Team now has sponsorship with haulage Mogens Hegelund around the use of giant truck camper, as support to the team and sponsors regattas with 40-foot trimaran.

    by Troels Lykke

    We are extremely pleased with this agreement, "says director Jonas Pedersen.

    "It's important for us to all collaborators in our projects have highest class. And haulage Mogens Hegelund helps us to offer the very best conditions for both sailors as shore crew and sponsors, "says the director continued.

    Kitchen and Bar
    "We know the company Mogens Hegelund as a viable and serious partner in the logistics field and are happy also to get them on Carbon3 team as an official sponsor. Truck and trailer made available by the company contains all possible facilities like kitchen, bedroom and bath and there is a lounge and a bar that can be used to sponsor other events, "says Jonas Pedersen.

    See the camper next to Bella

    He is pleased to take this vehicle into service.

    "On the way to offer our sponsors even better return on their sponsorship to the team Carbon3." Says Jonas Pedersen.

    Truck and trailer will in the coming week could be seen on the square in front of Denmark's largest boat show "Both the Bella 2010" By truck downloadable information leaflet about team Carbon3.

    Truck and trailer will also be present as Carbon3 team's base at the many regattas of the summer as the team participates in.

    On www.carbon3.dk found much more about the team, the exciting boat and the construction of this in Faaborg.
     

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  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =============
    Don't be sorry, Michel. As far as I am concerned calling foils gimmicks is like calling a mast a "gimmick". Time and again all over the world the importance of lifting foils to high performance tris has been proven. Both Irens Sodebo and Idec were originally built without foils and now use them. Foils not only improve speed they improve seawortiness and handling. In the Route du Rhum
    the top three 100' SINGLEHANDERS all used foils. That should tell you something.
    For a cruising tri you don't need foils for speed but they could help with handling, ride and seaworthiness.
     
  10. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    But then, those same lifting foils can also put a strain on structural issues not present in a boat without them, aren't necessary for some boats to go fast, add exhorbitant cost and complexity and are incredibly more expensive should they be damaged.

    Is there a place for them... sure, but it's decidedly limited.

    And they are gimmicks, Doug. A boat can sail without lifting foils, but will have one hell of a tough time doing so without a mast/spar. Well, unless you want to visit the world of kiting while screaming and kicking, that is... ;-)

    Take one look around you at all the boats in the world; multihull, or monohull, and you'll see that the percentage of lifting foil equipped boats is so infinitesimal as to be barely noteworthy. That bit, alone, makes them gimmicks. As soon as another, trickier gimmick, rolls along, foils will be gone and there will be a new flavor of the month. It's just like the previous bogus claims that CBTF keels on monohulls were going to sweep the world of rec sailing boats as the next flavor of the month and that we all just had to have one. You remember those boasts, don't you, Doug?

    Confining the concept to racing machines does not make for a very widespread use factor. It has an automatic limiter compared to the much, much broader recreational boating market where good sense, relative affordability and all-around usefulness matter far more to the owners of such boats. "I wonder just how much fun it would be to scrape barnacles out of a curved, lifting foil trunk?", being but one question rec boaters will ask, should someone introduce a banana foil equipped trimaran for the rec market.
     
  11. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    But Christopher, any foil, dagger or rudder set in a float is likely to create damage should you plow into a solid object, same thing with dagger and rudder set in main hull; flooded main hull or flooded section of float, take your pick. The difference in loads from one large main hull dagger to two smaller ones in floats, is a red herring. If you're saying that appendages in floats are gimmicks, then so are the accepted ones in main hull. Irens is just using his practical and creative mind deciding that angled daggers/foils in the amas are a good thing. And they are. Have you ever sailed a tri with appendages away from the main hull? I like the steering difference. And the interior of the main hull is larger and less cluttered. You seem to put a large amount in store in conformity. Here in Auckland, there are a lot of people thinking foils, or daggers in amas right now. It may not be mainstream yet ... but it is coming. And I'm no gung ho proselytizer, just observing what is happening. I bet you also dislike solid wing rigs too. That is also coming, albeit slower.
     
  12. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    Do I really have to say this one more time? I suppose so with the human predilection for stuff that would clutter a discussion with facts, so I'll put it out there again... I'm not against lifting foils per se. I enjoy foiling craft and I think they make for an interesting, albeit teeny, slice of the sailing design aesthetic. What I am against is the process in which a design is hacked to death due to a desperate need to stick lifting foils on anything and everything afloat. There, that ought to put it correct.

    So, let's take a look at some of things you indicate in your post.

    "...is likely to create damage should you plow into a solid object, same thing with dagger and rudder set in main hull; flooded main hull or flooded section of float, take your pick."

    There's more to the issue than this simple comeback. I know you know that and perhaps you left out the substantive tidbits due to space limitations... BUT... if one were to look at the relative differences in structural capacity to absorb a collision, either from a main hull daggerboard, or an ama mounted daggerboard, there is no comparison.

    The main hull, with its much larger structure that is designed for heavy loading absorption, is far better suited for that particular issue than is the much lighter structure of the ama. You know, as well as I, that a watertight flood compartment can be built around any foil trunk, so that entire flooding of a hull thing is somewhat overstated.

    Nevertheless, if I were to have a choice as to which component element of a trimaran I would prefer to have flooding, it would be in the main hull where the weight could be centered in the overall boat. Having an ama flooded pretty well limits sailing to one side of the craft as the other one would be rendered non-functional. That would push the radio call button for outside help and a self-rescue, which I know you prefer, would be out the window.

    "If you're saying that appendages in floats are gimmicks, then so are the accepted ones in main hull."

    Great stuff, if that is what I said. I said, "lifting foils were a gimmick", since they are such a tiny component piece in an overall design quiver. I referenced that opinion to Doug's lovely pairing in his comeback that a mast is also a gimmick. Geez, Gary, you're really not overlooking that reality just to make a created argument, are you?

    But as long as we are talking about appendages and referencing your quote above, just what is an accepted appendage on a main hull? Would that be a rudder, which has been around from day two of the first boat built? Would that be a keel form, which would be any protuberance beyond the fair arc of a hull bottom? Both of these have been around since the very beginning of boat design and building. Are you really calling keelforms and rudders gimmicks, seeing as how they exist on virtually every sailing boat on the water. Since you brought it up. How many rudder/keelform appendages are out there in use compared to the numbers of lifting foils in use? And the gimmick prize goes to...?

    "Irens is just using his practical and creative mind deciding that angled daggers/foils in the amas are a good thing. And they are."

    This one is easy as I never said that boards, angled as they are on this design, are problematic for me. I would think that if he had angled them any more, I would be suggesting that there would be an issue without a central daggerboard if the boat is supposed to be a monster upwind and down.

    The discussion about board angle was very clearly about the fact that large lifting claims were being made and I showed through language and diagram that it isn't so and is likely not intended as such. There hasn't been a refutation of that presented argument by either yourself, or Mr. Foily. To toss this one out there is a classic misdirect play and I'm not biting.

    "Have you ever sailed a tri with appendages away from the main hull? I like the steering difference."

    I've sailed a conversion tri in which a main hull was built to make use of daggerboard equipped beach cat hulls in a trimaran configuration. The boat behaved acceptably, but there was no matching example present from which to draw conclusions as to benefit, or otherwise. If it's build benefit for that type of boat, then yes, I would agree that the style is beneficial.

    "You seem to put a large amount in store in conformity. Here in Auckland, there are a lot of people thinking foils, or daggers in amas right now. It may not be mainstream yet ... but it is coming. And I'm no gung ho proselytizer, just observing what is happening."

    I put a lot of store in solid design solutions whatever they look like. For multihulls, lifting foils are one possible design solution, but I'm not dedicated to them as a panacea for otherwise crappy design, or for preventing me from looking for an even better hull form, or deck spacing, or interior needs, or functionality, etc.

    The fact that there a lot of folks looking at ama mounted daggerboards in NZ is interesting, but hardly an indication that it's the coming thing right now. It is A thing, but not really THE thing. You indicate as much in your comment, "...it may not be mainstream yet... but its coming" The future, of course, being a non-definitive concept. Besides, the French have been up to far more mischief on this front than have the Kiwis and not all of their boats have ama mounted boards.

    Lastly, even if there is activity with ama mounted daggerboards, it does not mean that there is a swing to lifting foils, as not every boat will benefit from them and an even smaller percentage of sailors are going to want them on their boat. Yeah, some folks who are always fiddling with stuff like this will adopt. You are one of those guys and your opinion and interests are of value, but they hardly represent the vast bulk of sailors, or even the everyday multihull guy. In short, Baigent... you're an oddball... but you knew that and that's why I like you. ;-)

    "I bet you also dislike solid wing rigs too. That is also coming, albeit slower."

    You'd lose that bet.
     
  13. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    And my pogo stick uses torsion bars, so there. Really, watching you guys set each other off with nonsensical design item name calling makes as much sense.
    Dick Newick offered a similar angle ama foil trunks on a lot of his designs. Most people didn't bother but in the right conditions the boats with them would sit up and pull away from everyone else. They were there as a ama assist and didn't replace the daggerboard. Ama daggers make sense if the main hull is going to fly or you want more room.
    The formula 1 circus approach of the RV etc...is no doubt to psyche out the competition.
    The barnacle cleaning banana trunk comment is very insightful because if boats do go into production designers can market their wadget to West Marine or the boat manufacturer. If you think outside the curved box you could probably sell custom team painted jobs to the big racers now to help with their trunk flossing chores. Niche markets......
     
  14. cardsinplay
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    cardsinplay da Vinci Group

    Ahhh, it's harmless stuff, Cav. Gary likes to poke me every once in awhile and I am just having fun poking him back a bit. It's a lot like two guys who are having a beer out in the garage while one of the guys is fiddling around with his boat stuff. There are some good bits tossed in there, but most of it is just gentle smack talk for fun.
     

  15. cavalier mk2
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    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Just don't wax those bananas while I'm on line........
     
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