Carbon-Aramid : rotting away.. ?

Discussion in 'Materials' started by cotedazur, May 25, 2020.

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  1. cotedazur
    Joined: May 2020
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    Location: France

    cotedazur Junior Member

    Hi,

    I would like to put a let's say "yacht-like construction" into the earth without having it rotting away in a year or two..

    The fiber-reinforced structure is as follows :

    Earth
    (1x) obvious metal structure to carry the weight
    (1x) foam isolation
    (2x) top coat
    (1x) carbon-fiber aramid layer
    (6x) laminate layer
    (2x) reinforcement layer
    (8x) construction layer
    (2x) anti-osmosis layer
    (2x) top layer / top coat
    water (a lot ;-)

    How am I sure that is the best structure for, let us say a really big "water tank"?
    I don't have any product specifications from the seller, that is the best thing I got so far...

    To be honest, it is a swimming pool and I am sorry for asking this but the seller gives a 100 years warranty and I am just astonished because from the little i know from my modest speed-boat, this is just impossible ! But maybe, I am totally wrong and things are completly different when it comes to swimming pools?


    Many thanks for your help!
     
  2. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: Barbados

    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    Welcome to the Forum Cote.
    How big is this swimming pool?
    Is it closer to a kid's paddling pool, or can you actually swim lengths in it?
    Will it be built from first principles in situ, or will the panels be prefabricated elsewhere and then assembled on site into a box like structure?
    Re the 'obvious metal structure' - is this steel plate? If so, how thick, and what is it painted with?
    Re a 100 year guarantee, maybe the seller feels fairly confident about this on the basis that neither your nor he might be around in 50, never mind 100 years.......
     
  3. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    I would send the guy away. Carbon kevlar in a pool? Anti osmosis layer? Steel to carry the weight?
    Try this: Dig big hole. Line hole with plastic (and foam if you need insulation), apply fiberglass with polyester resin until enough thickness is formed (chopper gun). Sand and apply gelcoat.
     
  4. cotedazur
    Joined: May 2020
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    Location: France

    cotedazur Junior Member

    Thank you so much.

    1) For the dimensions:
    It's 54 feet long x 13 wide...
    One half is very flat to better heat the water - the other half is 5 feet deep.

    2) Fabrication process:
    They use a mold just like for a boat - I don't know about their techniques for the spraying. Neither do I know the names of the products being used ( I just wrote them an email...)
    The steel is just an overall frame, there are no plates involved.

    You are right. The company is just 25 years old ...

    I thought it really sounds great. ;-(

    I know how to fix top-coat or I could get somebody to repair any damages if ever anything was going to happen - but what about the other side of the pool, the one towards the earth ? In a boat, you have access from both sides to inspect any damages :( that is why I am worried about it rotting away.
     
  5. bajansailor
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    bajansailor Marine Surveyor

    I would agree with Rumars - your man sounds a bit dodgy (suspect).
    Does he have a website that you can link to re his pools?
    Or did he supply you with any brochure which you could maybe scan and post on here?
     
  6. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Location: Germany

    Rumars Senior Member

    Fiberglass pools are here to stay. The enemy is as with all fiberglass, UV and osmosis. Osmosis can be prevented by resin choice and careful manufacturing and it is not a problem anyway, it's not like you will sink. UV will have an impact, more so for the above the water parts. With care it will last 100 years, after all we have fiberglass boats that are 60-70 years old.
    I still find the carbon layer a waste and don't understand the metal frame and the layup.
     
  7. cotedazur
    Joined: May 2020
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    Location: France

    cotedazur Junior Member

    @Rumars thank you...
    I looked up all the possible structures of pools and ended up with this one.:(
    I thought it was the best quality I could get because all other materials commonly used have their own problems (osmosis, UV light, chlorine, abrasion, sweat, brome, fongicides, algicides, water temperature :oops:..)
    Please find attached the documentation for the layers.


    And I just looked up their FAQ, their materials come from ashland.com and the spraying machines are by Graco. But this does not mean anything, of course..
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  8. Rumars
    Joined: Mar 2013
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    Rumars Senior Member

    It looks like a specification made up by the marketing department.
    1. 3x gelcoat. Maybe they spray three times but the total coat thickness has to be thin enough as to not crack and thick enough to allow ocasional buffing.
    2. Anti osmosis barrier. If they have not invented something new this is resin rich CSM.
    3. 8 layer construction probably means woven rowing + CSM
    4. Stiffening layers are probably bulking mats like coremat or soric but could also be plain CSM or even foam.
    5+6+7 additional fiberglass woven rowings layers where needed.
    8. The carbon/aramid, this is probably to provide hoop strength for the whole pool. Why a carbon/aramid mix I can not understand at all.
    9. Gelcoat to waterproof the laminate on the earth side.
    10. Insulation foam
    11+12 steel reinforcement, probably for stiffness.

    The big questions are, polyester or vinylester resin or something else? Is the steel galvanized and powdercoated? What is the insulation foam, XPS or PU?
     
  9. cotedazur
    Joined: May 2020
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    Location: France

    cotedazur Junior Member

    Thank you so much. I like your comment about the marketing department:D

    I will try to find all this out.

    Why these choices?
    I think in Europe, the perception of the mixture of Carbon-Aramid is still being associated to real high-end products.
    People with boats know that this was not the end innovation but in terms of marketing, it is a good choice.
    I am really interested in polymers and I liked their idea - especially in regard to what the rest of the pool-industry is doing .. from a boat-forum point of view :D
    But by looking at new hybrid polymers, pools could be made out of so many other compounds (with less construction hours involved..).. still undecided.
    I will post their answer as soon as they get back to me.
     
  10. Blueknarr
    Joined: Aug 2017
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    Location: Colorado

    Blueknarr Senior Member

    The steel is just for support prior to ground placement.

    They are molded on a big plug. Then lifted off turned right side up and transported to their final resting place. This requires far more internal support then when full of water with an earthen backer.

    Centurion lifespan is possible
     
  11. cotedazur
    Joined: May 2020
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    Location: France

    cotedazur Junior Member

  12. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
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    Location: Monroe WA

    ondarvr Senior Member

    I was in the F/G pool industry for over 20 years.

    Even a poorly built pool won't rot away, but may develop blisters, which is mostly cosmetic.

    The ground supplies almost 100% of the structural support, the F/G shell is a glorified sheet of plastic. It needs to be strong enough to transport it to the site, this is typically more stress than it will see in use.

    Using even somewhat good materials, and even moderate attention to detail, 100 years isn't a problem structurally.

    Anything other than typical glass is of no benefit.

    Cosmetics will deteriorate over time depending on UV exposure.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
    bajansailor and Rumars like this.
  13. Eric ruttan
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Location: usa

    Eric ruttan Senior Member

    Probably cheapest is a perment wood foundation.
    Also, if you use epoxy, and not ester, you do not need osmosis protection.
     
  14. cotedazur
    Joined: May 2020
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    Location: France

    cotedazur Junior Member

    Hi guys,
    well, the company responded to me in an rather strange way, all of my questions were a secret of production.
    It won't come as a surprise but I won't buy this argument nor the pool. And if ondavar is of the opinion, the carbon-aramid does not have any additional benefits, well, then I could just buy a normal pool.

    Any boat maker would tell their client almost anything - out of respect, of proud, whatever..
    I just love studying products before I buy them. I love to understand the product.

    This might lead to far from my initial question but is the pool industry innovation-driven? What is your impression? @ondarvr

    I just looked at patent numbers and they are far behind every other industry (be it cars, naval, aero, .. ).
    I'm really intrigued. Might buy up a pool company eventually once fully understood the rules. Would be a nice investment if you could change the rules of the game with much better products. Or even found a company. Intrigued.
     

  15. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    There are a few pool companies that build very good products, actually most do now. There was learning curve early on that took a while to navigate. Most problems with F/G pool shells takes several years to show up, so a company could be 5-8 years into production, or change in materials before a problems shows itself. Faced with huge losses they would just go out of business.

    Now they use time tested products that have very good track records.

    The days of blistered pools is gone for the most part, something more needs to go wrong for blisters to appear.

    For the time being there's not really an advantage to using high end production methods or exotic fibers. People want a good looking hole in the ground that is easy to maintain and low in cost.
     
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