cant make my mind

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by kaor, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. kaor
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    kaor Junior Member

    Hello! Let me introduce my self. Im 32 years old guy form Croatia, and huge fan of wooden/classic boats and I have few questions about design and building methods.
    I always dreamed about 28-30 ft classic boat, but realized that project like that need lots of money, time and experience. So I realized that my first boat project should be around 20ft. I will (for few years) sail either solo or with my girlfriend, i like to go fishing (special technique for fishing dentex ).
    By doing research I find two similar designs but with different building methods.

    First is Paul Gartside 20 ft Itchen Ferry Cutter Design #101

    http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail2.php#itchen

    and second is Francois Vivier Koalen 22

    http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stoc....html#koalen22

    So now comes a questions

    1. Which one is cheaper to build?
    2. Can I use epoxy as well inside and out, like "west system" in Paul Gertside design ?
    3. Which would me more durable , marine ply with epoxy or wood - wood/epoxy?
    4. Is Paul Gartside Ferry to much of the bite for amateur? Because Viviers cold molded method with ply looks more simple
    http://www.vivierboats.com/albumsen/.../index_en.html
    5. I see that PG have deeper kneel and should be heavier, does it mean that Viviers would sell better on the light wind ?
    6. Is Black Locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) good wood for PG sailboat?
     
  2. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Marine ply is wood. If you use solid wood encapsulated in epoxy, durability will be the same. The key is encapsulated, it means that there will not be any deterioration due to moisture unless there is some kind of damage.
     
  3. tom28571
    Joined: Dec 2001
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    If you build one boat successfully, there will probably be many others to follow. Both of these boats are pretty big bites for an amateur to chew for his first meal. Gartsides boat is the heavier and most likely the more expensive. Neither is a simple boat for a first build. Perhaps you should find something simpler that will not take so long to get to the sailing stage. The joy of sailing is not directly related to the complexity or cost in time or money. There are great number of similar sized boats to choose from that can also provide much pleasure in building and sailing. These two are very attractive but perhaps not the best choice right now.
     
  4. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Good man Koar....Paul Gartside draws very beautiful boats. He is an artist builder. That design will look wonderful tacking upwind thru the Kornati's.

    Study Mr Gartsides thoughts on wood , epoxy , strip planking and the difficulty in creating an epoxy water barrier on the inside of a complex framework vessel with heavy wooden components.

    That boat shown is strip planked with exterior wood skins to control movement of the strip planking.

    This is not complex construction . Communicate with Mr. Gartside and seek his guidance. . Find out what wood is available locally in Croatia before approaching Mr. Gartside. . This is important when deciding plywood vs timber construction . High grade marine ply, sheathing fabrics and exoxy must be expesive to import into Croatia ?.

    . Very many beautiful wooden boats in Croatia...very much boatbuilding skill and advice is available locally in Croatia. Turn over a rock in Croatia and someone is building a boat under it.

    Black locust ? the locust I know is dense and heavy and used for structural components, not planking. ....cedars,spruce, pine.. are better for skin.

    Google woodenboat mag... Gartside yacht RIFF. perhaps its on the internet. very much information , advice given, as they actually construct a strip planked 12 footer from cedar if I remember correctly

    Builder of epoxy wood boats in Croatia who might be able to suggest local timber.
    Enavigo Wooden Boats
    Vinkovacka cesta 21a,
    Virovitica,
    33000
    Croatia

    Tel: +385 33 803 340
     
  5. kaor
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    kaor Junior Member

    Yea, marine plywood Is expensive in Croatia, i think 100 euros for one 2500x1700 mm If i can recall it right. Enavigo Wooden Boats use oak and teak , which is not good in many opinions (oak). In Croatia most of wooden boats are traditionally build so without epoxy.Paul said in his replay on my email that Black locust is good, hmm but I think maybe is to heavy?? Maybe domestic pine or something, because we dont have cedar in Croatia.
     
  6. TeddyDiver
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    Spruce you have... :)
     
  7. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    ...I would trust what mr Gartside told you. Its possible that he is referring to frames and keels ? Ive only seen locust used for keels, frames ect as a substitute for oak. On small boats planking is cedar or another light wood.

    What is the timbre from western Croatia ? a spruce...a pine. Very many times I see is when they are repairing the old time tourists boats.

    Many times the best way to get started and learn very much is to first build a small boat. On a small boat all problems are small, all mistakes are small and the budget is small.

    In Gartsides plans portfolio is a very beautiful. 10 foot long ship !!

    called PIMS... this beautiful miniature project would teach you many things.

    And allow you to develop a better relationship with the designer,your skills and shop set up and your local boatbuilding community. The little PIMs is very very special. Every time you "Put Put" that baby thru the harbour people will stop and look.

    http://www.gartsideboats.com/catpow.php
     

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  8. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    "The traditional gajeta falkuĊĦa was made only with cypress wood from the volcanic island of Svetac. The keel was made of oak " Ask Mr Gartside about the suitablity of cypress planking for his boats/
     
  9. kaor
    Joined: Dec 2010
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    kaor Junior Member

    well, most of wooden boats in Croatia are made from oak, somehow people think is best quality wood, but Loctus is much more durable and rot resistant. I ask about loctus, because there is lot of it around my weekend house. We also have Spruce, and I know is light, but will it rot fast?
    Michael i see you are quite familiar with my country :)
    To be honest, 20 ft is minimal boat for my needs, and I really dont have time or money for few smaller boats first :)
    Paul replay to me : " Black locust is an excellent boat building material if you can get it in clean lengths"
    One other really popular naval architect replayed :
    "Regarding Black Locust, this is a very good boat building timber if one is using traditional plank on frame methods, however I have not used it for a wood epoxy structure. Certainly I think it's mechanical and gluing properties would be fine, however in my experience the timber tends to have irregular grain, and frequently has knots or other flaws. This is ok when you are sawing a large timbers and can include them, however if you are looking to mill thin strips for laminating I am not sure how well it would work out. So, in theory, yes I think it would be an excellent timber for the framing elements of the boat (not planking), but you would have to have very good clear stock to start with."
     
  10. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Yes locust it is a great wood. And if Gartside gave it the OK then go for it. It is heavy wood for planking. We use if for fence posts becasue the local trees grew very straight and its rot resistant. Again...always follow the designers advice for every question

    Black locust in boatbuilding


    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/columns/pete/index3.htm

    And boats are not difficult to build. Learning how to take the dimensions off the plans is a learning experience. Cutting wood and assembling is easy. Do you have the Gougeon Brothers book on boatbuilding ??....it is fantastic and will help you everyday during all phases of construction.

    Im familiar with Croatia because Im a yacht captain and have been sailing the coast for almost 20 summers.
     

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  11. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    Look at these Glen-L plans All these plans are by Naval Architects and provide full scale plans--no lofting---and are designed for the back yard boat builders. While there some very complicated designs, most can be a 1st build. Thousands of Glen-L have been built throughout the world. I built my first in 1958 it was the flying saucer. Good luck, Stan http://www.glen-l.com/
     
  12. kaor
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    kaor Junior Member

    Still dont have that book, but I will get it before building start. Will still consult which wood should I use, Im in preparation and getting money phase :D
     
  13. kaor
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    kaor Junior Member

    Resor, thank you. glen-l was first site i opened 3 years ago when I was start dreaming about building a boat, but there isnt any design (even they are beautiful ) whit that " special something" . After some years I realized that i want boat I want, not that boat I can easily build, if you get my point. If I have money and courage I would go for this http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/010zinnia.html , but I must be real and I said to myself that I want boat I can build in 2 years period , at least for first boat :D
     
  14. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Ive only built small skiffs. My advice is to assemble all hull materials...the best you can source...then spend great time and effort to construct a very good hull...spend all your money and all of your energy on the hull. . Then take a break...stand back...make some more money...then get back on finish fitting out. Dont become confused with engines, masts, sails, fittings while building the hull. A boat is the hull...not the jewlery you hang on it.... and Gartside draws very beautiful hulls.
     

  15. kaor
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    kaor Junior Member

    yea, thats my thinking, build hull first. that shouldnt cost a lot, wood is fairly cheep. Than get some money and buy epoxy ( in Croatia 1 kg of epoxy is around 30 euros / 40$).
     
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