Canoe vs Kayak bow?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Meander, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. Meander
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: N. Miss.

    Meander New Member

    Greetings everyone! New member here. I hope someone can tell me the functional difference between the curved up shape of a canoe bow vs. the sharper, angled bow of a kayak.
    I'm about to start construction of a solo open canoe/kayak using kevlar/fiberglass composite layup on a male mold as in James Morans book and I'm trying to finalize the design in my head before going further. Thanks!
     
  2. duluthboats
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 1,585
    Likes: 43, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 779
    Location: Minneapolis,MN, USA

    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

    Good canoes and kayaks have the shape determined by use and the materials available to build them. In general canoes are flat water boats and kayaks are used in white water and the sea. There is a million designs and the one thing they all have in common is that they fill an intended need. What is your need?
    Gary
     
  3. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    Typically a canoe is not decked in whereas a kayak is. The decked kayak will plough through waves and shed water around the cockpit coming. For rough water the paddler will have a sealing skirt so no water can enter the hull. If the canoe ploughs into a wave it takes in water.

    This distinction is not universal though. Some canoes such as OC1s have an enclosed deck and a self-bailing foot well so they will plough through waves without taking in water.

    A more common distinction is that a canoe paddler uses a single bladed paddle while a kayak paddler has two blades.

    If you posted pictures of the difference you have actually observed there might be a more specific answer.

    Rick W
     
  4. alan white
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 3,731
    Likes: 121, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 1404
    Location: maine

    alan white Senior Member

    There are boats that are halfway between canoes and kayaks and therefore there is no single factor seperating the two types, only a recognition based on more factors being present to define the type.
    As mentioned, decking, double paddle, rough water usage, and sharpness of bow, but also flow reeboard to sheerline, ability to roll, narrow beam, seating down low, and use of spray skirt also define a pure kayak.
    Few kayaks, however, have every one of those features, and many canoes share some of those features.
    Many decked canoes are marketed as kayaks by the above definitions. With language, we come to expect a sort of mathematical precision when it comes to words, but you can see that there is no last word when it comes to definitions, since their usage is in living language and the usage defines the meaning, and usage changes all the time.
    For instance, you yourself can change the meaning of "kayak" simply by calling your own canoe a kayak. Only a miniscule change, but it has an effect that ever so slightly changes the meaning forever.
     
  5. srimes
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 277
    Likes: 24, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Oregon

    srimes Senior Member

    x3, there really isn't a clear line. My personal view is that a kayak is designed to handle water coming over the top, either with a deck and optional skirt or a self-bailing cockpit like the sit-on-top kayaks. A canoe is designed to keep water from coming over the top in the first place, but if it does it'll fill up. That's my take fwiw.
     
  6. duluthboats
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 1,585
    Likes: 43, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 779
    Location: Minneapolis,MN, USA

    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

    Just to make things confusing. ;-) Here is 2 hulls, both have the same shape on the water line, both are paddled with a single paddle. To me they are both canoes, others might call one of them a kayak.
    Gary :D

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Meander
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: N. Miss.

    Meander New Member

    Canoe vs kayak bow

    Thanks for the input. I guess I'm going for a kaynoe or canyak. My two design choices are down to the Wee Lassie (L) or the Rob Roy (R). The Rob Roy has a more angled bow and stern which will allow me to close the ends on the male plug and still be able to remove the boat from the form. I'll then add medium length decks to each end for floatation, storage and to help prevent waves entering the boat. I guess my original question should have been directed more towards performance than function. I'm sure that the angled bow will encounter less resistance then the less angled canoe type bow. Ultimately what I'm looking for is a short, lightweight boat for smaller creeks and ponds that has a low seat, narrow beam to be paddled with a double paddle, and an open cockpit for ease of getting in and out for portages
     

    Attached Files:

  8. messabout
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 3,113
    Likes: 279, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1279
    Location: Lakeland Fl USA

    messabout Senior Member

    scrumptious canoes in the pictures. Either of the designs that you mention are elegant examples of a minimal decked canoe. Both are pretty narrow and will not take kindly to paddler gymnastics.

    When one says the word canoe to the non canoeist, the mental picture is a double ended boat with crescent shaped ends. Similar to the ones we supposed were used by Ojibway and other native american tribes. I suspect that the shape of the ends were more a matter of building facility than of hydrodynamics. The native americans did not have epoxy and had to rely on rawhide lacing and beeswax or pitch sealants. A laced end would last a bit longer when the top terminal end curved back toward the middle of the boat.

    You are talking about more modern shapes that do, in fact, give some consideration to lumpy water. Sea kayaks often have long overhands that are helpful in lifting the bow or stern when encountering a wave. Go fast kayaks will have plumb ends to maximize waterlines. For general purpose or exploration types, such as Rob Roy, the ends taper a little bit and the forefoot is rounded. That is probably there to facilitate movement over objects that may be encountered in the water. Weeds, logs, and in my Florida case alligators.

    If you are going to build a plug (male mould) then you have the boat built already. Why not just use it that way and have a boat that is similar to the pretty pictures? You may , or may not, save a little weight with kevlar but not enough to get excited about. Of course if you intend to do long portages, every pound counts.
     
  9. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,718
    Likes: 316, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow I'm not a cat.

    Nice to know.

    What a clearly eloquent explanation you gave.
     
  10. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
    Posts: 5,866
    Likes: 299, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 1749
    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    Windage - dont forget about windage - it affects canoes very much, and you would want as low a bow profile as possible if you are going anywhere near exposed waters.
     
  11. duluthboats
    Joined: Mar 2002
    Posts: 1,585
    Likes: 43, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 779
    Location: Minneapolis,MN, USA

    duluthboats Senior Dreamer

    Here you will find an enormous amount of information about canoes. It dates from a time when people were very serious about canoes. Consider it a free education.
    http://dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/
    I will 2nd the poster who cautioned about the use of Kevlar, it is expensive and a ***** to work with. You can build very strong light weight canoes/kayaks using wood strip, lapstrake, or skin on frame construction. If you have questions I would like to help, this is a subject I have a passion for.
    Gary :D
     
  12. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
    Posts: 1,260
    Likes: 148, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 1806
    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    here are some canoes we manufacture and sell. The shape is typically to South Africa and are flat bottomed.

    First pic of bare hull sans deck and you can see the flat floor.
    Pic two shows two types I do - the smaller one with the two "hollows" at the back is favoured by fisherman and they put the lines and bait/feed into those rowing lines into the water. The red one is the larger one and two seater and has a little rocker in the hull.
    Third pic shows my old lady and grandson playing in a smaller canoe:cool:

    Kayaks are quite distinctive from canoes over here as the posted drawings clearly shows.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Tiny Turnip
    Joined: Mar 2008
    Posts: 733
    Likes: 171, Points: 43, Legacy Rep: 743
    Location: Huddersfield, UK

    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    If weight is a concern, you might want to take a look at the GA Boats website

    They major on canoes, and have some kayak patterns. There are (adapted) versions of both the Rob Roy, and the Wee Lassie.

    They are exceptionally beautiful, and exceptionally light, but sacrifice some durability: You wouldn't want to be sliding over rocks in rapids with one, I suspect.

    They do use some exotic materials, which are supplied in a partial kit (no timber) and recommend steam bending for the frames.
     
  14. Meander
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 4
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: N. Miss.

    Meander New Member

    Although the idea of building a wood strip boat is very appealing, I worry about the abuse it could see on the rivers I paddle. Mostly in the Arkansas and Missouri Ozarks. Some of these rivers can be pretty hard on even some of the plastic or aluminum boats. Currently I'm paddling a 12', 40+ lb, fiberglass and so far it's held up pretty well. My complaint with it is the weight (twice what a kevlar boat would weigh) and the 32" beam, 13" side height, means I can't sit as low as I would like and still use a double paddle.
     

  15. Tiny Turnip
    Joined: Mar 2008
    Posts: 733
    Likes: 171, Points: 43, Legacy Rep: 743
    Location: Huddersfield, UK

    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    The GA Boats Snowshoe12 has a beam of 28", a 10" side, and weighs just 13lbs. (according to spec.) However, from what you say about the rivers, I expect it would be a non starter!
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.