Canoe Resin Infusion - How do I manage resin distribution across mold?

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by ahender, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    see if Noah's has an infusion recommend
     
  2. ahender
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    ahender Junior Member

    I previously looked at Noah's.

    I'll be buying from Easy Composites. There is a hazard fee so I'll buy more than I need for now.

    {{model.productMeta.WebStoreDisplayName}} https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/resin-gel-silicone-adhesive/epoxy-resin/epoxy-infusion-resin.html

    The slow hardener has a 80-100 minute gel time, 2o0-450 cps viscosity. Not sure why the range is so great. I will ask why this is.

    Of all the composite websites I have visited, Easy Composites is the most organized and they also have a forum.

    Customer support has been fast in answering questions.
     
  3. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The range is likely temperature. Warming the epoxy helps flow; increases cure rate. 250 is probably at 30C which is the same as Ampreg or close. The higher number is probably 20C. And the gel time is probably 80 minutes at 30C and 100 minutes at 20C.

    My supplier said I could infuse if I heat the resin. I opted against infusion, but wish I had learned it.

    After lots of research on epoxies, Ampreg is my top choice. I also a fan of Silvertip for wet bagging and general hand work, but the Ampreg has a lot more lab work and operating guidance. If I ever try infusion, Ampreg will be it.
     
  4. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Surprised Groper hasn't coined in.
     
  5. Eric ruttan
    Joined: Jul 2018
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    Eric ruttan Junior Member

    You might hit up @rob denney
    He uses an infusion epoxy mixed in AU thats 11USD a kg. But thats a bulk price. He will know the best infusion epoxy in the UK.
    Also has good advice on how to set up infusions and loves to chat boats.
     
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  6. ahender
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    ahender Junior Member

    Thanks for the tips. With shipping, I can get (5) 5 kg infusion epoxy kits from Easy Composites for $103 per 5 kg kit. That includes shipping and hazard fee to the U.S.

    Far cheaper than any low cps epoxy sold by a U.S. company.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  7. KD8NPB
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Location: South Carolina

    KD8NPB Junior Member

    I just helped with infusion for a 36' boat yesterday.

    We use VE/DCPD blend resin, infusion specific with about 150 CPS viscosity. Gel time is about 60 minutes with MEKP9.

    Branch spacing is 24 inches average.

    Branches a premade, supplied by VECTORPLY corporation. They're basically pre-stitched peel ply with enkafusion or split tubing.

    The entire perimeter is surrounded by vectorply red infusion media. It's a long tail of peel-ply with split tubing. The split tubing is pulled up in to the bag, and only the tail of peel ply touches the mold. Vacuum passes through the peel ply easily, resin does that. This helps slow the resin flow once it gets to the vacuum zone, that way you're not sucking a ton of resin in to your catchpot if your branch spacing is poor.

    The keymost factor to success is the material we mainly use is either QXCFM3515 or QXCFM5615.

    These are quadraxial e-glass (0/90/+45/-45) with continuous filament matting stitched on. Continuous filament is not to be confused with chop strand...it flows VERY well for infusion and adds thickness, but not much strength. Thickness is good for stiffness. Stiffness and tensile strength work together.
     
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  8. ahender
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    ahender Junior Member

    Very interesting. Thanks for your comment.
     
  9. ondarvr
    Joined: Dec 2005
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    Location: Monroe WA

    ondarvr Senior Member

    For that resin and infusion, you might try MEKP925H.

    It will foam less, plus the viscosity increase will be delayed until until later in the cure profile. This can speed up the infusion.

    HDP75 might even work better depending on part thickness, and will result in less shrink.
     
  10. Chotu
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Location: Florida

    Chotu Junior Member

    I can give you a recipe that has worked well for me every time. Including 50 foot hullls.

    After your laminate, put on green resin flow media. This is a cross hatched Green tiny wire fence basically. The flow media helps the resin make it up the part at the right speed.

    Every 24 to 36 inches, arrange black flow channels vertically. As if they are ribs in the boat. Something like the orientation a bulkhead would be. 90° to a stringer. These are very important. These are basically another plastic mesh that is enveloped in some type of paper-ish material. These forms long vertical stripes up the sides of your help. These are placed on top of the green flow media. Everything can be held together with tape.

    Run those flow channels from your intake hose at the bottom around the gunwal Of the boat, and end them approximately 4 to 6 inches from your vacuum line which is located all along the keel. Maybe in the case of something small like a canoe, and that vacuum line just a little bit back from the bow and stern. Just a few inches.

    And then of course, put the bag over all of that.

    Meticulously test for leaks. I suggest getting an ultrasonic leak detector. You can hear them, but sometimes there’s a tiny one and it can take you hours to find it. Much better to use the leak detector in less you are on an extreme budget.

    When you start the infusion, feet in from the gunwale. What are you will see is the Apoxsee goes up the Flo channels first. It will rise up those and form a V shape between them. That’s what the leading edge of the Apoxsee will look like as it is going from the gunwale To the keel. Remember your boat is upside down.

    So the leading edge of the wet epoxy will be going faster up the Flo channel and slower along the areas that do not have the Flo channel. The gap at the top you live between the Flo channel and the vacuum line/keel Allows these to all catch up with each other at the right time at the keel.

    A good infusion Apoxsee can be found by the manufacturer MAS.. They make a very high-quality one that will work well for your project. I have used it myself several times.

    I was reading this briefly while doing something else, so all of these comments are done with voice recognition. I’m not going to go back and change the errors. Because I think it’s readable. And I don’t have too much time at the moment. However, I wanted to get this information out to you. The learning curve is steep on this one.
     
  11. Chotu
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Location: Florida

    Chotu Junior Member

    Note, after your Fiberglass comes peel ply. Then the green resin flow media. Then the black flow channels. Then the vacuum bag

    And on a small hole like a canoe, go with 12 to 24 inches on the Flo channel. Not 24 to 36.
     
  12. ondarvr
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    His hull will be right side up, not upside down. So the feed line will be along the inside of the keel.
     
  13. KD8NPB
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Location: South Carolina

    KD8NPB Junior Member

    Good tip...makes total sense as advertised for 925H! The first one was done with 925H, the last two were done with MEKP9...none of those were done under me, I'm the new LAM manager.

    This manufacturer I'm working for loves having a selection of initiators it seems.... We consume MEKP925H clear, MEKP9 Red, MEKP9 Fading Red, Luperox DDM9, Luperox Delta X9, and CAT730 CHP/MEKP depending on time of year and process. At my old employer, all I had was DDM9 Clear and DDM9 red!

    Honestly, our branches are so conservative, speed is not an issue. We even use some compoflex for good measure on a few difficult spots. The keel line I believe has 6 layers of QXCFM5615 total with overlaps? Most exotherm peak was 115-125F, highest on the keel was 155F. Cored hull and cored sides with AIREX foam.
     

  14. ahender
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: Athens, GA USA

    ahender Junior Member

    I truly appreciate all the advice. This is my current plan. The female mold will be upright, flange at the top. First step, five coats of Stoner's Miracle Gloss. Apply each coat of wax, immediately wipe off, let sit for an hour, wax again, repeat until the entire hull is done. Add a PVA coat, or coats. In this case I will use hairspray (after testing). Add one layer of 9.6 oz. S2-glass. Add another layer of glass in bow , stern, and bottom. Add PTFE peel ply. This peel ply is stiffer than typical peel ply but much easier to release. The PTFE does not effect secondary bonding. Next, add resin flow media (type undecided). After media is added, I will have three 3/8" ID resin feed lines. The widest distance inside the mold at center is 59". I will have an approximate 8' bow-to-stern resin line in the center of the mold and one on each side half-way up the mold. The center resin line will fork at each end. Resin flow lines will be double wrapped with peel ply. A 3/8" ID vacuum line will be placed around the perimeter of the mold. This line will be double wrapped with peel ply. Resin flow media will also be under this line. Yellow vacuum bagging tape will be used. The vacuum bag material is undecided. It needs to be at least 80" wide. Once a full vacuum has been achieved and tested for an hour, I will infuse center resin line first, then when resin has reached outer lines, close off the center line and open the outer lines.

    When this first step completes, I will add a core material to the bow, stern, bottom of the mold, and around the top of the mold where the gunnels/gunwales will be attached. 2-1/2" wide core ribs running up the sides will be spaced along the length of the hull. Core thickness will be 1/8-1/4 inch. Gorilla glue thickened with cabosil over a fine mesh will be used as the core material. Once this has cured and is sanded, I will repeat the first layer. My goal is a hull that weighs <15 pounds.

    With all that said, I am still finishing my mold. It sat outside for many years and needs some patching in spots where the gel coat did not adhere to the reinforcement when the mold was originally built. Half has been repaired.

    Again, thanks to all for your advice and I welcome more tips and tricks if so inclined.

    I'm envisioning something looking like this, but smaller. :)

    Alan

    test.jpg
    Image Link: Aiming infusion at the application https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/aiming-infusion-at-the-application
     
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