My Boat Now!?

Hello to all,

Although I've visited many times, this is my first post ever on this forum. I hope everyone is having a terrific holiday season.

My immediate goal is to possess the boat of my dreams ASAP! My first choice would be for it to have magically appeared in my driveway this morning as my Christmas present. But I'm too old to believe in magic... and I've been pursuing this dream for over ten years, so I know it's not going to happen overnight. And it wasn't in the driveway.

First, I need to say time and money is important to me. I'm not getting any younger (age 55) and, although the image of me toiling away making my own boat in my own garage is appealing, I'm worried I could spend the next ten years working on my boat and the day it's finally finished is the day I have my heart attack! Aaargh. I'd like to be on the water sooner than that.

I also know nothing in life comes cheap. I guess I'm just looking for some kind of middle ground. I don't want to pay $5 for something I don't like and I can't afford $450,000 for what I truly want (unless and until I win the lottery) for I am a simple man -- a mere lifelong professional educator who always foolishly thought it wasn't all about money -- until I tried to get a boat built.

About ten years ago, I communicated/consulted with a respected naval architect. I asked for an estimate on approximately how much it would cost to design and construct in aluminum a vessel very similar to the [famous] Happy II sailboat. He told me he could do it for $116,000 for the bare hull -- I could do whatever I wanted on the inside!

I knew right away I had entered the wrong career field. I should have been a naval architect!

So a few years went by and by then I was thinking of a Maddy 18. I called another boatbuilder who advertised custom boatbuilding. We had a nice talk and he was very friendly and knowledgeable. He asked me how old I was. I told him I was 50.

He told me, "A man needs one foot of boat for every year he is old." This is probably sage advice. And if I win the lottery, I'll buy a darn 50 (now 55) footer. Unfortunately, money is an issue for me. However, as an ex-salesman, I always thought one of the first rules of sales is not to talk the customer out of a potential sale.

So I've seen many fantastic vessels on this and other boards on the internet. Many I love but wonder, "will it cost $116,000 for a ten-footer?" "Will the architect discount my dream and instead try to sell me a 50-footer?"

I really love the new 22' aluminum Bartender boat advertised on their site, but $60,000 to $70,000 is just a little steep for me (I think it's a fair price -- just a little out of my ballpark). I was excited to see Tad mention that he has a 16-footer planned in the future.

I love the Maddy 18 -- McNaughten Group I believe.

I really have fallen in love with Mr. Fisher's Grey Swan as a motorsailer.

Mr. Welsord's 13' Fafner is spectacular as is the larger vessel (approx. 18 feet).

And there are many more beautiful vessels between 12-22' designed by many that could or would work for me...

So here are my questions... does anyone have any great advice on how to proceed toward obtaining a great small microcruiser given time, money, and other [unfortunately, I'm terrible at woodwork!] constraints -- where I can get the boat of my dreams at some kind of reasonable cost within a reasonable timeframe with a minimum of hassles for the builder/seller and myself?

1) Is it possible to get buiilt a 10-12 minimalist sailboat similar to the classic Happy II for, um, less than $116,000? I mean, it's a 10-12 foot boat!!! Maybe $10,000 to $20,000? I don't want to be unreasonable...

2) As previously mentioned, the Bartender 22 is a terrific boat, but out of my league. If a 22 foot aluminum boat costs approx. $70,000, then [doing the math] would a 16 foot aluminum boat cost approx. $46,000? That's nearer my comfort level. And if the boat could be built without the diesel and in various levels of completeness, could it get down to about $30,000? That's in my ballpark.

3) Although I have never build my own boat, I have studied up on the stitch-and-glue method. I guess I could save a few bucks and attempt the Maddy 18 or Grey Swan motorcruiser version in stitch and glue -- but darn I'm no good at cutting and I don't have any darn saws! Is there anyone out there who could precisely cut the wood parts since it's not in a kit form -- and send them to me for completion? I wonder how much that would cost?

4) Are there those who would build [a given] hull (aluminum and/or wood) and I could finish it? Like I said, I don't think I'm that good at building a hull... I could add the motor and steering, etc.

In sum, I want a cool boat (as per my definition) and would expect to pay a fair price. Aluminum is great but wood could also be spectacular. But unfortunately I don't have a whole lot of money or wood skills (there are some things in life I'm great at, though). A great compromise between a Nordhavn 55 and a 6 foot boogy board would a 16 to 22 foot motorcruiser in wood or aluminum... but who could work with me towards my goals where we both come out ahead?

What is a fair price?

Would you rather sell one yacht for $300,000 or ten yachts for $30,000 each?

In this American economy is there a market for a small $20,000 to $30,000 microyacht? I'm not looking to sail around the world in a ten-footer, just looking to putter around the Sacramento River Delta for the next 3-5 years and my beloved Flathead Lake in my retirement years.

Hope I haven't offended anyone in my first post. I've just been frustrated that everyone (at least those with whom I've spoken) seemingly wants $100,000 for a fifteen-foot hull...

The most important factor -- the wife -- has been accounted for. She has finally given her Christmas permission for me to [slowly and cautiously] proceed toward my life dream... now that both daughters' and her dreams are taken care of (well, sort of -- long story).

Now, how can I get one of these cool vessels that is at a fair price for the builder/designer and myself?

Who could build a 16-footer in aluminum or wood? Or cut the parts for a 16-footer in wood for stitch and glue and send to me? Or provide help in some way towards my dream that doesn't cost me $100,000 for a 16' boat?

It's the holidays and I think (no -- I know) the rum may be taking effect! That's my job as a boater, right -- to have just enough rum to take effect? So again, just honest questions -- some admittedly out of several years of frustration. If it works, I'm enclosing a few pics of the kind of vessels about which I'm thinking.

Let's get me into the cool boat of my dreams soon in a way that won't break you or me. I'm listening to any ideas or offers. Feel free to contact me on or off the board.

Happy holidays,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

Welcome aboard!

A decent list of wishes, so to say. That should be doable even if you have three thumbs at each hand!

Go here:

http://www.bateau.com/products.php?cat=18

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Motorcruisers.htm

https://www.boatdesigns.com/departments.asp?dept=2

and narrow down your requirements (and maybe increase the size a bit).

Then let us know which and why and so on.

Take care! Prices and building times are too often estimated on the "low" side (for marketing).

Regards
Richard

 

Well, Don, you have a lot of catching up to do. My suggestion is you buy used and discover what you like. I don't understand a lot of those figures for tiny boats. These days it makes no sense to spend a lot for new when you can get so much used boat for the money.
You ought to find a used boat in the 20-30 ft range for under 30k. Improve it, modify it, or do some minor rebuilding and still you won't come close to the cost of a new boat.
Well built boats hold up. The outward appearance may be a bit tarnished, but boats (especially sailboats) are not like cars. Some boats are poorly built and their lifespan is certainly somewhat limited. Others go for fifty years and more. You'll see a lot of 20 yr old boats out there for a fraction of the new cost. That's where you ought to be looking.

 

Thanks Richard & Alan for your kind welcome and ideas,

It's true an image of some perfect boat floating around in my mind is not doing me any good because I'm not out on the water in it! I do need to narrow down my list of needs/wants and find something used for a price within my means. Otherwise, it seems I'm wishing my life away -- dreaming about this perfect boat, yet frustrated that I'm not in it!

I'll [continue to] keep my eyes open for used vessels while at the same time balancing that out with possibly getting a project going in my garage... maybe the Fisher 16 Grey Swan motorcruiser... that way I can be out boating while at the same time building my dreamboat... killing two birds with one stone...

I'll keep you informed on my progress...

There, the rum has taken full effect and it's time to go to bed. Talk with you soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

Hi Don and welcome. I wish you were one of my son's teachers. You know how to spell, or are at least careful enough not to post with a bunch of typos. You wouldn't believe what my kid brings home from school sometimes....but I'm getting off track! Please don't sell yourself short as an educator. I'll wager that you have many good memories of people you helped to a better life.

Alan makes some good points (as usual), and Richards work speaks for itself. Compared to those two I'm an amateur but it sounds like you are too, so maybe we have something in common. I'm 54.

A word about size. It matters. Look at all those male enhancement commercials you see on cable. But bigger isn't always better. I see a lot of older guys at the club with 40+ footers that can't go out unless someone is with them. If the wife gets sick (or just sick of boating) he's kinda stuck unless he can find someone else to go. Bigger boat, bigger fuel costs (or new sails are more), bigger dockage fees, bigger insurance, bigger everything. A smaller boat can be single handed more easily and cost less to operate/maintain. As always, it's a trade off.

You've used the word "dream" a number of times. I'd suggest that there is no such thing as anyone's "dream" boat. Just as there is no such thing as a "dream" wife or husband. Ol Tigers soon to be X could probably weigh in on this one, right? Whatever constitutes the dream will invariably change over the coming years anyway so why not make an attitude adjustment now and save yourself the trouble and heartache later. Why not look for a practical boat? Of course only you will be able to determine what constitutes practical. As the economy (and my personal fortunes) have taken a turn for the worse over the past two years my definition of practical has changed. Some expensive electronics that I'd planned to install in my boat are now on the back burner. As I do the restoration I'm making allowances to add them in the future but they won't be going in for awhile. That said the boat itself is still on track for completion this spring.

It sounds like you're afraid to tackle some building / restoration yourself. Well Don, you might be all thumbs. As a teacher though you must know that there is a learning curve for just about everything. Given motivation I'd like to think that most people are capable of lots more than they give themselves credit for. With all due respect to the many skilled builders out there restoration boils down to cuttin', gluin' & screwin'. Oh, and paintin' too I guess.

Now before anyone gets angry with me it's certainly more complicated than that. After three years of working on my own boat I realize now why houses are relatively cheap compared with boats. It's the curves. Boats are loaded with them. As a teacher you know that they teach geometry to 5th and 6th graders (angles) and save the calculus (curves) for high school and college. It's difficult working with arcs, it requires more thought and skill and TIME. Time = money so IMO that's a big reason why boats are so expensive. You get what you pay for.

Don't sell yourself short though. A few years ago I could build a simple deck but by no means did I consider myself a good framer or carpenter. I still don't. Guy's like Alan White could work circles around me I'm sure. But I have TIME on my side since I'm doing this for myself and my boat is small enough at 27' (we went over the size thing above, right?) that I don't get overwhelmed by the size of the task.

Should you decide to investigate doing some work yourself do some reading. Don Caseys "This Old Boat" is a good one, as is "Wooden Boat Renovation" by Jim Trefethan, a more technical read is "Boatbuilding Manual" by Robert Steward and one of my favorites "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" by Nigel Calder.

Make that "dream" realistic and I think that you'll be happier and more content in the long run. There are lots of decent used boats out there that seem to be dropping in price all the time. As a businessman who has his professional training in Economics it's my opinion that you have time on your side. I doubt that the used boat market will be taking off anytime soon.

Take Alan's advice!

Good Luck and once again Welcome,

MIA

 

Oh Donneeeeyyy boooyyy, the boats the boats are co-ho-ling.
(Ben E. Maddisson was it )

Bigger is better, you can ask the wife if you didn't believe the mentioned enlargement part , or simply check with Godzilla

Get the biggest boat you can handle yourself, which should come in up to 10m.
Too small a boat is uncomfortable, less space for the fishing gear, less stable and a lot of less nice things a bigger boat does offer.

How to decide is easy. While boating, if you spend more time on the hard then get a small boat.
If you spend time on the water all the time get the bigger one.

As for the age thing, most of us here are probably over the wall so to speak.
My brother-in-law says if you wake up without a pain or some quirk then you know you have died
Seems one only begins to get some kind of a brain over 50 any way.

Assuming you don't have other plans to bail out early we can assume you're about half way, which leaves you with a couple of good sailing years yet...
except for Richard of course, he only steams to where ever he goes

I'm not going to give you advice on which boat to get - there are so many and as many nice ones.
The best boat is the boat you have (once you got it) and how you rig it out yoursellf will determine how much you will enjoy it.

There are also lots of different types of boats, so don't be too set on what you are looking for now.
You may well find that something different is really what you are after.
Make a list of what you expect from your boat - space, comfort, speed. size, safety etc etc.
No boat would meet all the requirements, but tick the absolutes and take it from there.

Don't buy a boat in haste - shop around, the right deal will come your way.
Some clever guys here on the forum with looots and loooots of experience and knowledge.
So just ask and someone would give you the right answer.

Good luck and do post some pictures of what you stumble across.

 

Hi missing in action and Fanie,

Wow! Thank you both for the welcome and words of wisdom.

As I read through both of your posts (and Alan's and Richard's), the following has occurred to me... boat design, building, and acquisition are about:

1) the process, not just the final product;
2) dedication, inspiration, hard work, and motivation;
3) patience and perseverance;
4) learning by doing and reading (obtaining knowledge);*
5) courage;
6) humor;
7) independence and self-sufficiency;
8) friendship and human relationships;
9) hope and optimism;
10) setting goals and pursuing them; and
11) obviously much, much more...

I think you've answered my question -- these are the reasons why boats cost so much more than stick houses...

mia, what you said about "dreams and dreamboats" is true. One day I see "the boat of my dreams," pursue it, and by the next day, I've fallen in love with another (I guess I'm similar to Tiger in that respect!).

I also have to accept the reality that, "size does matter." I've gone through life hoping and wishing that it were indeed quality, not quantity, but... whoops, never mind! And Fanie, I'm afraid to ask my wife that question (you know, don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer)...

One thing I've always told my students is, "Not to decide is to decide." It's time I take my own advice. And I appreciate everyone's encouragement and support. I need to decide have to have the courage to [pick up a saw -- or lay down the money] and begin working toward my goal (which will include pursuing a bigger boat)!

I'll keep you informed on my progress.

Thanks again and talk with you soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

*mia -- I agree, don't get me started about education. All I know is I get to retire from California public education in 3-5 years!

 

IMO you nailed it with your first attribute "the process".

That is exactly what we're talking about here. IMO the more hands on you are in the process the more you will get out of the final product. Not everyone thinks this way of course.

MIA

 

Well....here is a 22' aluminum power cruiser currently priced at $81,600 USD.

http://bartenderboats.com/for-sale.html



View attachment T T - 22GA.pdf

 

Ahhhh......and I see now you mentioned in your first post that the 22' was out of your league.......

16' is really small to carry a raised pilothouse, but I'm working on one now. 7'6" beam, round bottom strip planked with glass sheathing.

 

A foot for every year is just baloney. The older you get, the less boat you can handle. In the USA it is full of used boats for bargain prices. Check online and then hire a surveyor when you found somehting you really like

 

Eh Gunza you louse. That will be the day. We can outlast you young chaps any day with most things.

You know the story of the old bull and the young bull looking down on the herd of cows eh. Don'y put yourself to shame lad

Don, I don't know what you have in mind, but do take a look at multihulls as well.

 

Good evening All,

Great to hear from everyone.

First, Tad. I have a picture of the 22' Bartender (as well as several other beautiful vessels) posted in my classroom. I tell my students, "Man, you need to [get out of the gangs and] take wood shop and metal shop, study up on your math, dream big, and some day you could design something like this! You could not only make some money but you could explore the world!"

I have the Bartender page bookmarked and I can't tell you how many hours I've spent just gazing at (and dreaming about) the vessel... it's a terrific design. I can't believe someone hasn't already purchased it.

Like I said in a previous post, I think it is fairly priced... just probably a little out of my league. Unless -- hmmmm, it has a galley and a bathroom... I wonder if it would qualify as a second house? Maybe with some creative financing?

I'm very interested to see the 16-footer you're working on. As it relates to the raised pilothouse, maybe I'm using the wrong terminology. Maybe "enclosed cockpit" is a better descriptor? I hope this isn't blasphemy to mention another naval architect, but [in my first post], the second and third boats pictured are a 16' motorcruiser version of Mr. Fisher's Grey Swan with an enclosed cockpit [sic]. I envisioned the gray version in aluminum (built by you in the same spirit as the Bartender). I can't wait to see your 16' design come to fruition. I may just drive up to Washington and purchase it!

The yacht-white version is/would be, uh, stitch-and-glue by me...

Gonzo: If I win the lottery, I can hire a crew to take care of everything on my new 90-foot yacht. Also, several people have advised me to hire a surveyor before purchasing anything... obviously good advice -- I will -- thank you. And I'm not officially old yet!

"Hope I die before I get old!"
Pete Townshend, The Who

Fanie: Once I was a young bull standing next to an old bull looking down on a herd of cows... I don't know how that ever turned out because I was too young to know what to do. Here's my real-life related story:

When I was in high school back in the early 70's, my good friend, Don, said, "Come on Don, let's sign up for typing class." I replied, "There's nothing but girls in that class!" He said, "now you're getting it!"

The bad news is I took typing instead of wood or metal shop (that's why I don't now know wood or metal). The good news...

Also, regarding multihulls: that thought doubles my dilemma!

missinginaction: Whoops! Sorry, from now on, it will be "MIA," not "mia." Also, I'm thinking process and product!!! Best of both worlds.

Thank you all for your input... I'm thinking at 100 mph!

Talk with you soon,

RainGear (Don)
California, USA

 

Don,
It's a buyer's market for boats. A man with cash who is both willing to buy right now or turn and walk away is in a position of great strength. The world is full of guys who have been waiting a long time for you to show up.

At your age you need to decide if your prime motivation is to enjoy the satisfaction of building a boat or going boating. Either is a valid choice although they are not the same thing. Again the world is full of boats lanquishing in backyards never to be completed because guys didn't balance their desires and ambitions.

Boats are funny, a used boat a few years old is better than a new one. The initial problems have surfaced and been fixed and there are thousands of dollars of added goodies thrown in. At the same time boats are funny, after the first year a boat is only as good as the maintenence that has been done on it. A boat 20 years old that has been well maintained is a better boat than one 5 years old that has been indifferently kept up. Sadly in one way or another boats are always broken, need to be fixed, parts swapped out and improved. You will never get to the end of the list. The best anyone can do is keep her in good shape, work on fixing the bigger things on the list and use her. Boats, especially pleasure boats don't really wear out from use. They wear out from lack of use. The best maintenence you can do to a boat is use her once a week.



A benificial aspect of this is if you buy a used boat and even if it is perfect and turnkey in every respect (Which is the boat you should buy, you can never fix one cheaper than buying one barring a miracle) you will still get much of the satifaction of building one just keeping her well found and adding little improvements.

On the subject of size. Buy the size boat that you can handle with the crew you can reliably count on to help you. If you can't handle the boat confidently yourself then your boating will revolve around the schedule and desires of your crew. What size that is depends on your skills, attitude, and the boat itself.

Another aspect of size is your annual operating budget. A boat needs a chunk of money every month and size impacts that amount. The boat will need a certain amount and you will need to be comfortable spending a certain amount. It can be heartbreaking to be a slave to a boat you can't afford to maintain and operate. She is a worthy mistress but only if you can afford her, otherwise she becomes a frightful old shrew, never happy, never willing, and never able.

Best of luck, post pics of whatever you do, build or buy.

 

Regarding multihulls, ...