Call me stupid...

Hello...

OK - so Nimble makes a nice Ted Brewer designed smallish motor sailor...

Not to be stupid - but has anyone tried sailing one - upwind, ack...

Has anyone tried motoring in one - in a chop - without accidently losing your own very expensive replacement chops...

I WANT TO BELIEVE - that the world wants - well I want, anyway - a small motorsailer - 21 foot to 25 foot (holy small - stupid) - that looks like a boat (ie: not a Macregor wedding cake) and PERFORMS to windward under a powerful yet easily handled rig - with varying ballast in a vertically retracting bulb keel and proper lines to handle motoring in a swell...

A boat that is not to be built by a craftsman that would expect to be paid at least $120.00 an hour in say - a Taiwan back to the North American market, boat yard - I digress - Nimble does a fantastic job and Mr. Brewer is an ace, but I won't be going out tonight to dispence with my grandmother who just signed a whopper accidental death insurance form...

Well - am I stupid - just now I am 'mucking about' in photoshop again and liking what I see - but then, I might just be stupid - anyone interested in pursuing this with me...

I WANT TO BELIEVE...

Thanks - brilliant site...

SH.

 

What was the question?

There are not too many pure sailboats in the 25 foot range that have both decent accommodation and good sailing performance. To add performance under power to the mix is to ask too much, in my opinion. Then to start guessing about design features like a lifting bulb keel to cross into fantasyland.

There are a couple of designs by Phil Bolger that you might look at for comparison to the Nimbles. The SeaBird '86 is a multichine-ply boat, 23', raised deck. He meant it as about that would be good with an outboard and have decent (though modest in contemporary terms) sailing ability. He has drawn a "Navigator' vesion with a sort of deckhouse. Another interesting Bolger design was once named the 'Marina Cruiser' but the design name has been changed to Merlin after the first boat built to the design. It's pretty much a straight displacement powerboat with a sailing rig added. The owner likes it a lot, but he understood the limitations before he built it.

It's easy to imagine a boat with abilities that exceed what the laws of physics allow.

 

Fantasy land - not really - more of a design and marketing stretch of the imagination...

Once you start doodling it really does not look all that bad - much more of a boat than a Macgregor - I think...

And as for exceeding the laws of physics - the only one that I can imagine you might think me to be breaking in this instance is the assumtion that I am looking for planing speeds under power (like those wedding cake MacGregors) - but I am not...

The trouble with most motor sailors in the trailerable size range - is that they are very much more motor boats than sail boats - I am looking towards something that is 'comfortable' doing both...

Also retractable keels of this size are easy things to build - I like to tuck up into shallow tidal beaches where people walk their dogs - hang of the hook and BBQ - also my current marina has rather drastic Pacific tides...

lastly - I am sure that Phil Bolger is a really nice guy - but...

Thanks for the response...

SH.

 

sleeps two in the bow and even has headroom in the house. i once read somewhere fantasizing is the best part of the fun, now i have my hands full and pockets emty on a not so imaginairy sundancer but must say this small motorsailer is looking atractive!

 

Thanks Yipster - I am even surprising my golfer and skeptic wife - she keeps saying things like 'thats more like it - it rains a lot out here you know'...

 

Sean -

It does look interesting. What happens inside with that keel retracted? And what happens to your shoal draft when you need some of that deep rudder to steer what I presume is a fixed-leg saildrive? How about a vertically retracting rudder? Nice profile.

Chris Krumm

 

Hello,

Yeah a vertically retracting rudder will be the way to go - I envision the keel retracting into a trunk which forms one side of the dash and hiding the steering hydraulics and electrics and a smallish tranverse hanging locker...

Also I don't know about an inboard at all - I do prefer the manueverability of an outboard and here I have to give in to the MacGregor approach of twin rudders with a larger HP OB on the centerline - however I would angle the rudders outboard like a 6.5 mini Transat - this arrangment would allow for simple pin and pivot...

What would you rather - a 10 to 20 HP inboard diesel saildrive with a single vertically retracting rudder - or the outboard - keep in mind my marina is very cramped and is under a bridge which creates eddies...

Thanks for your input - this is all very preliminary...

Also check out http://www.selectyachts.co.uk/redfoxhome.asp?ArtID=13

SH.

 

Motorsailers are the most difficult design of all. When I was younger there were 60-40's, 30-70's and the like in regard to them, but you don't see much about this anymore.

The name should give you a clue, motorsailer, not sailermotor, but . . . and as Ted put it so wonderfully, Difficult Design Decisions. The design requirements for a motorboat are quite different then a sailboat. Even a planning sailboat has a very different lot in balancing it's needs then a typical planning power craft, then the compromises begin. What parts of sailing performance are you willing to kiss off to gain the added punch a bigger engine will provide? Head room, in a shoal draft craft will require additional freeboard and the bow will get blown off if pointed too high. Not intrested in planning in power mode? Single digit speeds will reward you with a much better sailer as the two hull form requirements can be much closer in relationship. Powering in the swells is much more a function of seamenship then hull form in this size range.

The owner is the one who needs to do some real soul cowering to find a good one or at least to be happy with a set of compromises as found in the average motorsailer. Do you want good motoring performance with an assist from sail from time to time (70-30) or an assist from the engine rather then a harsh slosh to windward (30-70, 40-60) or will you ask the ultimate compromise of all and an equally powerable and sailable vessel that does neither well, but does have an engine and sails? Tough questions . . .

Jay Benford, Phil Bolger and others have had some success with motorsailers, but trailerable anything is adding another Difficult Design Decision to the mix, headroom, inboard, twin anything underwater, adjustable displacement all cause additional stress to the design requirements.

Shoal draft can be had without getting fancy. Centerboards, leeboards and bilge keels could answer the issue of parking on a beach and steaming up some clams. Kickup rudders aren't terribly difficult to engineer. I dislike anything that may jam in it's case as easily as a dagger when running into shoals, be it rudders or fins. I don't think a dagger of any type should be on a craft that can't be righted easily by it's worn out, short handed crew and a 25'er carrying the extra mass and gear to be an effective motorsailer is pushing the envelope.

This size range is getting to the point where I want an inboard, sailing performance would surly benefit from getting the hunk of iron off the transom and down in the belly where it belongs. I have good success with a removable trolling motor on my rudder (kickup) on a 23'er, but she is on the light side and hasn't near the windage nor mass of a typical motorsailer.

In the end, finding a good sailing 25'er with an engine isn't that difficult. Finding one that is a good motorboat is, an may have to be a custom, but will have the pit falls of stuffing the picnic basket with everything needed for the family reunion, no fancy drop bulb, twin rudder, water ballast special effect(s) treatment will overcome a well burdened vessel.

 

There is a 26 footer with a lifting keel here:http://www.seawardyachts.com/

The cabin, interior, and style are completely different, but I would say that the hull and foils were in a similar vein to your sketches.

 

You might take a look at the Swin motorsailer in the UK on yachtworld.com. The great little ship is only 22 feet long with a 17 hp Kubota diesel and all of the amenties of a Fisher. She has triple keels and a draft of 2 feet. The 16 gallon fuel tank will give her a range of about 80 miles. There's plenty of room for a 40 gallon tank that would provide a 200 mile range. One special feature that I like is that the chart table is right in front of the helm where is can be readily seen by the helmsman rather than running below to a "chart table" that is usually just the top of the ice box in most boats. The Swin is quite a seaworthy little boat and would be great for hopping around the Bahamas.
Duane Lang

 

Sean,
I found your Raven 25 MS design several months ago and found it very intreresting, so I posted it, with a link to your Boatdeingn pages, at: http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/motorsailers/monohulls.htm
Keep on working on it...

 

Thanks Guil'...

Hello...

I doodle in Photoshop more than I should - this was one of those...

Of late - I am concentrating on my little Gecko 14 Trimaran...

I appreciate you redirecting my 'doodles' as you see fit - I have no trouble with that - nothing posted is worth money to me - just ideas...

Thanks - cheers...

SH.

 

The idea is a good one. I was just thinking about the same thing last night (as the cold rain was coming down).

Gasp ... Glen-L has plans for a 25 foot motorsailer that doesn't look too bad. Inboard 6-16 SHP a sharpie with a full length skeg and an immersed forefoot. 4900# displacement and 226 ft^ of sail split evenly between the main and jib.

Definitely looks like a boat and no $120/hr yard needed to build it.

If the design was used as a starting point and optimized a bit for sailing ..?

No real need for great upwind performance, that's what the motor in motorsailer is all about ...

Glen-L Coaster

 

Look at this one!
Not bad for a 25ft.
http://www.sunhorse-yachting.com.pl/pages/deutsch/sh25vmd.html
http://www.skrzat-design.pl/strony/seah25.html
and also this one from the same designer:
MAJESTIC 20 joy
http://www.skrzat-design.pl/strony/skrzat3a.html

 

I went to Sun Horse yachting website selected ENGLISH and appear best answer for years to come:



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