Making a virtue from a vice.

Guillermo may recall a site about health that I use to guide my nutrition.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cancer_index.html

Specifically, there is evidence to support the view that corn oil and vegetable oils contain a majority of fatty acids that suppress the immune system, so enabling cancer cells to grow.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fats_and_cancer.html

On that basis, I strongly believe that the only safe places for those oils are in the tanks of diesel powered vehicles.

However, there is another option. I have found a site that offers steam powered DC generators. About a quarter of the way down the page is a SISSONS Generator Set. A high speed single cylinder enclosed steam engine coupled to 25 KW 110 Volt D.C. dynamo.

http://www.prestonservices.co.uk/generators.htm

At another site
http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf

is a 17 kW dc electric motor needing 96 volts to drive it.

Coupling those two units together and generating the steam by burning vegetable oil in a suitable Gunboat marine boiler http://www.steamesteem.com/ could we be looking at the revival of a technology from WWII. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckley_class_destroyer_escort

Not as large as a DE, but 50 feet overall like the Edwardian 50 from http://www.selway-fisher.com/Steamover30.htm

Who wants to be first to build this bonzer beaut? Don't all rush.

Pericles

 

Man, that would be nice! I so much wish I could afford to build this sort of thing (or even having the skills).

Neat idea, although I doubt one would be able to sell it afterwards. I think I need to "befriend" someone very, very rich (to pay for all the boats and ideas to come to life).

 

DanishBagger,

Thanks for your reply. It was an email from Birger Pedersen at http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12 that set me looking for a steam powered dc generator. We had been discussing the use of the Thoosa 17000 http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_17000.pdf to power a soon to be released Jacques Mertens design, the FL 26, http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=13918&highlight=fl26

I put the question to Jacques about powering his new design on the River Thames with batteries and the Thoosa 6000 http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/pdfs/Asmo_Marine_THOOSA_6000.pdf

Jacques' view was that the Thoosa 13000 would be required.

http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=14669

Birger suggested a DC Genset, Fischer Panda AGT 14.000 (10,2kW continuously) 200kg as an option to power a 13 kW electric motor, however http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/generators/generators.htm have a expensive 25 kW generator that would power both a Thoosa 17000 and take care of all house needs as well.

A Google search for a steam powered 25 kW generator took me to Preston Steam and you know the rest. All perfectly logical and yet, I am sure someone can point out the pitfalls, other than weight and cost.

As the Edwardian 50 is designed for steam propulsion, that should take care of the weight issue, bearing in mind that the Thoosa 17000 unit is only 40 kilos all up and the disconnection between steam engine and propeller will simplify weight distribution as well.

As for cost, I have yet to make enquiries, but what a craft????

Regards,

Pericles

 

Who gives a … about pitfalls? That is a very, very nice idea, methinks!

I'd be worried about using a too big generator though (the 25kw) - because that would mean that if you used it without enough load, it would last shorter. Or so says the Dashew-bloke (me, I don't know shyte about engine).

If the steam-generator doesn't work out, couldn't you do what Birger told you, and then get a small generator for the house (demands). That way you would even have a limp-home gen-set.

I read somewhere that commercial set-ups usually have both a large and a smaller generator. Each would then kick it when needed, keeping the load at the best interval. So if you needed full-on, both would kick it. Less, and the small one would stop. And if only house-usage, then just the small one.

Again, I don't know jack, but I would make sure that I talked to some one who really knew about the "wiseness" in installing a generator double the size of what is needed.

 

The difficulty with a diesel generator NOT working under load is due to the wear on the diesel engine, I believe. The steam engine is driving a dynamo, not an alternator, so the higher the revs, the faster you go (I hope). We shall see, as I copied this thread to Birger. The Thoosa 17000 requires 13 kW, but there are transmission losses and the electricity generated is proportional to the revs. Assuming good reliability from the dynamo etc. The owner only needs to collect used oil from restaurants or driftwood to voyage away.

Pericles

 

Yes, yes, I take your word for it on the steaming-part.

I was responding to using the over-sized Ossa Powerlite-generator solution you mentioned.

 

Over size and very expensive, but perfect for a twin screw with two Thoosa 17000 units. This gets more and more interesting. Tad Roberts has designed a series of vessls he named Passagemaker Lite. A PL46 is under construction in South Africa and I don't think a decision has been made on propulsion. Two Thoosa 17000s and and one OSSA 25 kW generator with a Sky Sail for the down wind legs. I like it.

http://www.passagemakerlite.com/news/2007/passageaker-lite-46-under-construction

Pericles

 

That is a nice one too.
I like your own idea better, though. If for nothing else, then for the sheer madness (or out-of-the-box thinking, if you will) of it!

 

DanishBagger

I've been looking at the steam boat plans on http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/r/plansindex/steam.cfm, however the steam electric doesn't have to be a Victorian outline vessel. How about http://www.cmdboats.com/aurora48.htm or http://www.cmdboats.com/aurpix2.htm?cart_id=f0c21ae8804f9c5b0106885a54b75c19

Then there is http://www.devlinboat.com/dcsockeye42.htm

Used cooking oil fired boiler and 25 kW steam generator would keep the vessel beautifully warm and dry and, if desired, TWIN Thoosa 17000s for better handling, could be installed. in a very strong cold moulded hull.

Regards,

Pericles

 

Pericles,

Power of choice for the PL46plus building in SA will be twin 65HP Vetus 4.65's. Gearbox will be ZF 63IV vee drive units with 2.477 : 1 reduction, propeller diameter will be about 26" and coastal cruising speed will be close to 9 knots with no stabilizers and clean bottom.

Unfortunately "pitfalls" are what I deal with every day. You mention replacing two small 4cly. engines and vee-drives (approx. 1000lbs) with a boiler, a steam engine, a dynamo, two electric motors with reduction gears, and an unknown number of pipes, wires, control boxes, and perhaps batteries (which the conventional vessel will also have). Weight of all this is unknown, reliability unknown, expense unknown, and there are no backups for key components. The weight issue alone eliminates any further discussion. The reason the PL design works is due to the aft engine room, the reason the aft engine room works is the availability of modern lightweight diesel engines.

Many perfectly good ideas are ruined by people whining about the expense and weight, not to mention maintenance.

All the best, Tad

 

My God, Perry! You need to switch to extra virgin olive oil soon! May I send you a couple of dozens of bottles....?
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/olive-oil.htm

 

C'est la guerre!

Guillermo, we use nothing else but extra virgin olive oil, except for beef dripping for frying English chips from raw potatoes. Oh, and goose fat for roast potatoes.

I have a HUGE Larousse Gastronomique, through which, I am steadily working. Too many recipes for one individual to eat in a lifetime.

Tad, thanks for your reply. I agree that there are too many components, to which there would have to be a keel mounted condenser, fresh water tanks and uplift pump water return pump from the condenser, all in the bowels of the vessel.

OTOH, when the next ice age starts and the oil wells freeze, I'd be able to steam to sunnier climes by burning seal blubber in the firebox,

If the Welsh Highland Railway can rebuild Beyer Garratt steam locomotives to haul their trains, maybe, just maybe, there is a slim chance for a steam electric boat. http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/87.htm

The full history is here. http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/

An unofficial account of the WHR, concentrating on track laying, is updated almost daily. http://www.doctorspinola.co.uk/indextemp.htm#News

Pericles

 

Danish Bagger,

The Sissons 25 KW, 110 V D.C. steam driven generator set weighs approx 1.5 tonnes and is priced at £4,500.

Perhaps I shall enquire as to steam consumption and working pressure, which will give me an idea about the size of boiler. Israel Newton & Sons of Bradford, are boiler makers and http://www.prestonservices.co.uk/boilers.htm have a few marine boilers in stock. A boiler for a 50 hp engine seems about right and if designed only for oil firing the fire box does not require a grate nor an ashpan. A vertical cross tube boiler might also do the job.

30 years ago, for a short time, I became involved in the boiler design of propane gas fired model steam locomotives, A very simple horizontal design that used one flue with slanted water filled cross tubes that acted as thermic syphons. It could be scaled up with more flues and cross tubes and would work as a vertical boiler. Welded rather than riveted.

I must give this more thought.

Pericles

 

Perry,

Those launch plans are beautiful. Just one question on the subject of environmentally friendly propulsion. I wonder, since all energy producing and consuming devices operate at efficiencies well under 80-90%, what the system efficiency would be for a four stage system (boiler, steam engine, generator, motor). There is a tendency to disregard efficiency and economy when thinking of alternate fuels. OK when there are few alternate fuel engines operating, but at some point efficiency will become important.

But, as I said, the boat is gorgeous. Build it for fun.

 

1,5 tonnes? Yikes, that's a damn big one! I can see why it might not fit in a slender 50 ft hull!

You write:

»30 years ago, for a short time, I became involved in the boiler design of propane gas fired model steam locomotives, A very simple horizontal design that used one flue with slanted water filled cross tubes that acted as thermic syphons. It could be scaled up with more flues and cross tubes and would work as a vertical boiler. Welded rather than riveted.«

By any chance, do you know were I could go (preferably on the www) to read more about these propane locomotive boilers? Are this sort of thing in use commercially?