Building live well that drains overboard and bubbles at sleeptime

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by the brain, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. the brain
    Joined: Sep 2016
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    the brain Senior Member

    Building live well that drains overboard and bubbles at sleeptime


    I would like to have a live well made out of a 5 gallon bucket placed on aft deck to keep cigar minnows ,croakers, pinfish ect.


    My plan is to use a 800GPH pump this https://www.amazon.com/Seaflo-Livew...7MJFQVN5N6Y&psc=1&refRID=TAPFXRYZ27MJFQVN5N6Y


    to pump in raw water in into bucket this Live Well Aerator Spray
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AZ5F9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02__o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1



    then have a drain a tad lower than inlet using a though hull this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LR4LPI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


    so basically I’m pumping in aerated fresh water from couple inches from top of bucket and draining overboard.


    ?1. is my 800GPH to much power for a smallish 5 gallon bucket probably 4 gallons inside? Or can my aerator be adjusted to be less forcefull I don’t want to blast the fish w/ to much current.


    ?2. should the drain hole be larger than the inlet hole? I’m thinking it has to be much larger since the drain isn’t pressurized I’d be pumping in more than can be drained? I think this is why store bought LWs have 2 pumps 1 for in 1 for out ,There will be a lid however it’s not airtight around lid.


    ?3. Or will the water drain out as fast as it enters even if both inlet and drain where the same diameter?

    ?4. how much lower should the drain be from the inlet?


    ?5. even though the fish eat there own poo poo will they require feeding or will they survive a day or two on reeating poop or eating the dead fish?



    At night time or sleep time (just a few hours) I was planning to use a battery operated air bubble pump like my fish aquarium has, or do fish need a current to swim against all the time?


    Would also expect to be able to transport live sea life on a 8hour drive w/ just the bubbler.



    I was actually planning 2 live wells (just in case I catch a bunch of bait) the aft deck 5 gallon and a 22 gallon on deck, would like to start off w/ a 5 gallon bucket and ditch the troll a bait container that stays in raw water.
     
  2. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    anyone know about pumping and draining water
     
  3. JamesG123
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    JamesG123 Senior Member

    800 gph is WAY overkill for a 5 gal. bucket. Pumped water will move faster than a gravity flow drain. You are likely to overflow the bucket and flush your bait out! Also read the unimpressive reviews of that pump...

    Fish aren't going to swim in a 5 gal bucket. You just need to keep the water reasonably clean and oxygenated so they stay alive long enough to... die. lol. You only need a relative trickle of ~ 1 gpM or so.
    Often day-sailing fishermen will just add a cup or so of 2% hydrogen perioxide to the live well.
     
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  4. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    actually I purchased the 800GPH w/ intentions of using the 22 Gallon and 5 gallon container w/ same design of LW pump in and let gravity drain out, will the 800 still be overkill for both tanks?
    I have the 22LW on hold.
    how about powering the 5 gallon bucket on the 800 momentary? or possiably have a timer switch?

    at least I could fill the tanks then use the bubbler, thanks for the tip on the 2% hydrogen perioxide to the live well is this OK w/ salt water? I learned something new.

    I have designed both tanks for easy removal for total cleaning.

    besides the 40quart cooler I tryed once (fish died quickly bumping into the squared walls,I've never had more than the troll a bait LW so I have alot to learn.
    thanks TB
     
  5. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    The more important thing is keeping the temps level by insulating the baitwells.

    Avoid flowing new surface water into the well as the temp can fluctuate a lot.

    The minnows survive poorly in a cooler due to ammonia from their waste building rapidly; not square walls. They don't care about the walls.

    If you flow too much new water; they will only fair well if that water temp is not changing. But it will be.

    Bait is more tender to temp swings and ammonia.

    An example of temp swing is the harbor is 75F. You filled your well with 50F water from the bait shop or a non-chlorinated source; then you hit the harbor and turn on the pumps and slam a 25 degree heat rise into the bait before you leave the dock. Some die and some recover, but are weakened.

    Cool, non-chlorinated and oxygenated water is the general magic. The aerator also can move ammonia into the air space above the well and your overflow can allow the ammonia gases to escape.

    Basically, you need to create an environment similar to their natural one.
     
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  6. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    Basically, you need to create an environment similar to their natural one.[/QUOTE]

    My bait store does a 1/3 water change daily. A 5gph pump would suffice for both tanks. A valve between pump and tank could be used to lower its output. It will also proportionally shorten the pumps lifespan.

    Aquarium shops sell self-adhesive thermometers that you can stick to the inside of your tank. If the water gets too warm, simply drop in a few ice cubes from your lunch cooler. Retired lunch coolers make great bait tanks. BaitTank2.jpg
    A pic I found after a quick Google search
     
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  7. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    Dam again buying the wrong boat stuff or I just didn’t do enough research.


    The raw water pickup tube is a dishwasher water tube so it’s a tad smaller inside diameter (I think it’s 5/8”)than the pumps PU, so I assume this will restrict the flow a tad, attach image of the PU tube (I have a screen on the bottom not sean) the pump is inside splashwell well above the water level.



    I never buy live bait at a shop (it’s fun to catch the small fish too I have a 4’x45’ stein net w/ a net/net sewn into the middle kindof like a shrimpers net I place my bucket and metal mesh traps w/in the net baited w/ dog and cat food pierced cans inside the staked off stein basically targeting shrimp/crabs when they go out to sea in the evening outgoing tide)


    but do buy frozen cigars,squid,shrimp. So the caught bait will be in the same temp water however the bucket will be exposed to sunlight.


    I’ll be on the lookout for some flexible Styrofoam to wrap outside,

    Should the inside of the white bucket be a dark color to calm the bait? This is why I used a blue container instead of white for the large tank.


    Edit: how much hydrogen peroxide to add to to a smallish 4 gallon bucket?


    Did a search the smallest LW pump I see is 350GPH so I assume I divide by 60=5.8 correct. Is the 5.8GPM for both large and small tanks or for each tank separately?


    I still a little confused about how long the pump stays on sparying new water in.


    I still a little confused about how much larger the discharge tube should be compared to inlet tube?

    Thanks Guy’s for advice TB
     

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  8. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    I measured the tubes that I think mite work. the inlet will be 5/8" inside diameter another dishwasher tube same as the pickup. the discharge tube inside diameter is twice the size as the inlet at 1 1/8" so I theorize if I pump out twice as much as I pump in then there could not be a overflow.
     
  9. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member


    Your outlet is capable of more than four times the flow as the inlet. Disregarding pressure.
     
  10. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    the larger cooler may work better than the bucket. plus besides the lid it's insulated.

    I already have a 40 quart cooler which w/ a high drain will probably hold 36 quarts 9 gallons.

    will use the 800 GPH to fill the cooler then use a 500GPH to just recirculate.
    will the screen sponge filter on base of bilge pump clean the fish ammonia
    how doe's my new plan sound?
     

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  11. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    sounds like
    there is like a mathematical equation that I should have remembered from school?

    are you saying that my gravity feed drain size 1 1/8" will flow 4 times of the inlet 5/8" tube? thanks for explanation.
     
  12. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    yes 4 times the flow capacity.

    Formula for area of a circle or cross section of pipe is

    Pi (R)^2

    Since the radius is squared, doubling the radius will result in four times the area or cross section.

    Friction is porportional to circumference (2PiR). So doubling the radius only doubles the circumstances and resulting friction.

    1 1/8 or 9/8 is almost double 5/8, so almost four times the area with only twice the circumference. So basically four times the flow.

    But... Input is pressurized from pump, while outlet isn't. Planned outlet should accommodate reasonable pump. However, an 800GPM pump will still overpower it.
     
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  13. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    thanks for explanation please recommend pump size for each tank 4,9 &22 gallon.

    remember eventually this 800 will provide for two LW tanks 9gallon aft.cooler or 4gallon bucket & 22gallon middeck tank.


    I was planning a drain tube (just a tube) near top of cooler, use 800GPH to fill tank then use 500GPH to momentarily recirculate.

    will 500GPH be to powerfull for either the 4 gallon bucket or 9 gallon cooler?
    should the coolers lid be insulted?
     
  14. Blueknarr
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    Blueknarr Senior Member

    I am away from catalogs at the moment, so I can't recumend actual models. Almost any pump would need a flow restricting valve. If you take tank size per hour you will have plenty more than enough. I would look for 1/4 - 1/2 GPM. Or the smallest available.

    Insulating the lid would be a good thing.
     

  15. the brain
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    the brain Senior Member

    ultimately I expect to have a 3way after pump.
    1.live well
    2.wash down
     

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