Building boat in suburbia? QLD Au

Discussion in 'Boatbuilding' started by DennisRB, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 1,268
    Likes: 25, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 228
    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    Thanks for all the replies guys.

    Wand. That story is a little nuts. But then a lot of people who want to build and live on boats are which probably includes me.

    Groper. Do you have a thread on your boat? Sounds interesting. I would really like to build it all in a real shed for the weather reasons you mention. I think it will be worth the costs for a shed IMO.

    Par. I totally agree the construction should not be visible in suburbia. Obviously groper is getting away with it, but its not something I would like to take a chance on. I think a real shed will cut out on noise too when insulated.

    Steve W. That sounds like an ideal setup. Not sure my girlfriend would want to live in a shed, but living in a shed would not bother me Main prob would be the communal bathrooms most industrial estates have. Rent is insane these days too.

    Charlie. Nice cat! Would be great for sailing the bay where I live and racing and part time cruising. Probably does not meet my SOR of being more comfortable and spacious that my current boat. Nor would any other demountable IMO.



    We have just sailed the pacific on a 40 foot hunter http://knottyladypacific.blogspot.com.au/ My girlfriend and I are 32 years old and both work with reasonable salaries, we have an apartment and a house 90% paid off between us. As I mentioned these will not be sold as the rent will provide us income while cruising. We have no kids.

    We BOTH love the cruising life and love SAILING. But we will be working full time for the next 3-5 years. In this time we can maybe build and pay for a boat to live on semi permanently while cruising the world.

    I have not decided on a boat, but it is to be an upgrade in comfort, space and speed to our 40 foot hunter plus sail VERY well. So not a condomaran, many of which we can already outsail in our hunter. I like boats like the oram 44c.

    SOR.

    Fast cruising, racing in cruising division.
    Upgrade in space and comfort to my current 40 foot hunter.
    Modern styling.
    Ease of construction.
    Not too expensive.
    No balsa. (unless I cam be convinced otherwise)
    Good resale (so plywood is out, due to misconceptions of the general boat buying public)

    To give an idea of a dream boat I would like, but fails important points of ease of construction and not too expensive I present the 1500c http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/welcome.cfm

    Oram 44c fits the bill a bit better.
     
  2. Wand
    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 22
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Australia

    Wand Junior Member

    If the original question was whether it's doable, then the answer is yes; almost everything in boating is doable. But the question really is whether it's the smart thing for you to be doing, given the alternatives and given, now, your age etc.

    I see you're just 32 years old, with a girl, both employed, both love sailing and have no kids. Fantastic! A fab time in life with so much energy and new things to do. Then why on earth would you want to mess all that up to spend all your waking moments and every available dollar on building a 45 foot cat. That is a serious size vessel and a build that will seem like it'll never end.

    And count the cost not only in dollars but also in lost sailing time, lost social time...and unless you tie a knot in it, when the kids come along it'll be on the market as an unfulfilled dream.

    So, eyes wide open :). Having said that, if you still wanna do it, renting a shed is your best option; I've seen it done a few times and the compromised living quarters serves well to focus the mind on the next job!

    Or if you were in Adelaide, you could rent a plot in our club's hardstand building area for just $460pa, including power, among the mangroves right beside the water with access to the Gulf St Vincent and the world's oceans. The advantage of doing it at a club is that there are other builds going on and you can get out on the water in a daysailer in the meantime.

    Maybe there's a club like this somewhere near you?
     
  3. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
    Posts: 5,627
    Likes: 256, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2489
    Location: North of Cuba

    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Masalai built a beautiful boat right there in Australia, within easy reach of the OP. It already floats and is ready for a good time. Why go to the hassle of buying a partial build many thousands of miles away?
     
  4. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,002
    Likes: 86, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 933
    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Because, like a lot of people, Masalai thinks that what he spent on the boat is what it's worth. This is very, very rarely true. His asking price is way too high considering the boat doesn't even have a rig.

    PDW
     
  5. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,002
    Likes: 86, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 933
    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Dennis:

    As I see it, if you want to build undercover, the cat hull is a killer, unless you build each one separately and then join them out of doors.

    I've done what you're considering. I have a 16m x 13m x 4.5m shed on my land. Inside it is all my tools & materials and a completed 12m x 3m monohull.

    You want to build something bigger. You'll need at least 1.5m of working room around the hull and ideally 1.5 to 2m of height over the hull. This doesn't consider materials storage, room to run stock through power saws, planers etc etc.

    You can do it, but you need a good plan for how you're going to work in the space before you start.

    As for councils, good luck with that. I own a place in Sydney on a 1000m2 block. No way would I try it there. Here in Tasmania I own 1.4 ha in a semi-rural area. Getting permission for the shed wasn't a drama, working on a boat isn't a drama, when I've finished I still have the house & shed.

    However, you are committing yourself to 5+ years of intensive work during which time you will get NOTHING ELSE done. If you try to do other stuff, your timeline will blow out. You may think that you're going to be the exception and the rest of us are fools, lazy or incompetent. Good luck with those thoughts, if they occur to you. I hope they provide some comfort when your timeline goes to crap. I've just been talking with 2 other builders of monohulls. 1 is 4 years into it, hopes to launch this year. The other took 6 years to build a Jay Benford 'BADGER' junk rigged dory, 34' LOD. This builder is a retired toolmaker and very experienced in building things. His boat is lovely.

    I'm having fun building my boat, but I wanted to build a boat and I don't care if I never get past Bruny Island. If your aim is to build a boat and using is is a sometime dream, fine. Otherwise, go and buy one and go sailing.

    Another 12 months and I *should* be finished mine. At that time I'd consider renting my shed and house to a boat builder, but it would be on a commercial lease not a residential one. Meaning the tenant gets a 5 year term but non-payment etc gets you booted instantly with the doors locked and your unfinished work, tools etc sold to defray expenses. I'd *never* rent to a boat builder on a residential lease.

    Oh yes it cost me $27000 to build my shed including concrete footings & slab but not including lining, wiring etc. Do *not* build a steel framed Colourbond shed without sarking and roof insulation at minimum. Rain from condensation inside the shed doesn't improve your quality of work.

    Go for it if that's what you want to do, just do it with your eyes open and budget for losing your grlfriend and/or having a small child or 2 before you're done (or get the snip done first....).

    PDW
     
  6. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 2,467
    Likes: 123, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 693
    Location: australia

    groper Senior Member

    Alot of assumptions there PDW... i expect ill have my boat done in 18months start to finish scratch built - only 9 months has elapsed thus far and im having a 3 month hiatus whilst the wet season is upon us. Dennis may choose to build a kit boat like a fusion 40 which could be done much quicker if he doesnt mind the high initial outlay - which is well worth it IMHO considering the hours saved. Point is, you dont know his ability or how long it will take him. Most people seem to take around 3 years to complete a 40ft cat... im a bit quicker as im a carpenter by trade, so i work faster than most and i chose my building process carefully.

    I agree that if you can find an unfinished boat - thats been built properly and suits your needs - its a good way to go. But finding exactly what you want is very difficult. Masalai`s 39C (for sale @ $250k) is not setup for high performance sailing, and does not have a rig. Its layout for rigging is setup for slow sailing or motor sailing and due to the general layout, it cannot be easily adapted to a different purpose. The entire layout is rather unique and not for everyones taste, certainly not to a performance cruiser. To buy a duflex kit from bob oram is around $70k. So, people build boats because they cant afford to just go and buy one outright, they trade their time for money so to speak in building one. So telling someone they should not build and just buy a boat is ridiculous - you dont know their personal or financial circumstances, nor their ability to do the task. The type of person who considers building a boat, is most certainly the type of person that believes in their abilities. The fact that so many dont get finished, is mostly due to financial problems and marriage break ups - which also causes financial problems in itself. The same applies to any long term project like building houses etc if the marriage sours or the people loose their income, then everything ends up in the hands of the lawyers or gets sold off cheap before the bank closes in...
     
  7. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,002
    Likes: 86, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 933
    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Of course they're assumptions. What else could they be? I used to run complex projects, sensible project management means planning for the worst case, not the best case. That way all surprises are likely to be pleasant ones.

    WRT build to completion time lines, I don't believe any of them until the boat is in the water & sailing. You think yours will be done in 18 months, you're 9 months into it, so you'll be finished by November this year, right? If you're not, then your self-defined time line has blown out. Note that when I use the word 'finished' I mean launched and ready for sea, not needing a fitout or rig installed etc etc.

    Or are we talking about months spent working on the boat as opposed to calendar months going by? That's 2 different measurements, for sure. Maybe you can build a boat in 18 months of work but if you've only got 2 days/week to work on it, let's see, how many years of elapsed time does that come to....

    No, I don't know his skills, his available tooling or how much time he has to devote to building as opposed to earning a living. Or how deep his pockets are to hire help or buy complete sub-assemblies. You can buy a prefab 16x13m shed and pay for it to be erected, you can design and build it yourself a lot cheaper but not as fast. So it goes with everything. I'm just going by what other people I personally *know* have achieved.

    As a matter of curiosity, can you list the builders that you know of, who have started and launched a 12m+ sailboat of any description, multihull or monohull, in less than 3 years elapsed time? I'd love to read about it. I'm 3 very lackadaisical years into mine, I take 4 months off every winter, should be finished sometime in the foreseeable future.

    PDW
     
  8. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 2,467
    Likes: 123, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 693
    Location: australia

    groper Senior Member

    PLenty... this one was built by a school teacher on the gold coast, friend of a friend, he now runs charters from it in the solomans, completed in 3 years;

    http://www.surftheearth.com.au/solomon_islands/liquid_desire.php

    Another built by a forum member who frequents many of the multihull forums, goes by the name of 44c; also done in 3 years the build blog can be found here;

    http://diy-yachts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=254

    In fact, theres a stack of builds on this aussie site, many of them completed in under 3 years;

    http://diy-yachts.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=23

    I know another guy who lives near me and has built 4 x +40ft cats, this is one he currently has going and all of them are finished in about 2years - although he is lucky enough to have an income generating business that doesnt require much of his time;

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Heres a link that shows one of his previous builds, he sold it and now its in charter in thailand... http://www.yachtcharterthailand.com/Yacht_Charter/mark_cash_46ft_catamaran.htm

    Before building boats, he was a used car salesman... btw
     
  9. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 1,268
    Likes: 25, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 228
    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    Wand. I sailed from Port River to Newcastle in a a boat my friend purchased. A Duncanson 35 "Lime light:". I loved that club. Nice people and everything was so cheap. Even a haul out to pressure wash the bottom was only $50!! Around Brisbane its more like $400!!!!

    I find it odd that you use my relatively younger age as a bad point. Surely it makes more sense for a younger person, as at least when the boat is finished I will have a long time to enjoy it. I see many 50+ people building boats. I think by that age I want to be sailing a boat not building it.

    Since my ability has come into question, which is a valid point. I will state that I have always been one to build and repair pretty much anything from home renovations to drag cars, virtually never needing experts to help other than for advice.

    I'm very competent with tools and got awards for best in the school on my year 12 cert for metal and woodwork. My jobs were usually finished in half the time of the rest of the class as well. That was a long time ago though, and probably doesn't count for much anymore. As you can probably tell I sucked at spelling and grammar though. :p

    Secondly. I would only do this IF I can get a change of work to the mining sector where I can work a roster such as 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. This will literally mean I have 2 weeks to work on the boat a month. Some guys from my company have moved to this very roster in the mines which incidentally pays much more than my current job.

    PDWiley. I would love to design and build my own shed. But look at how cheap sheds are now http://www.bestsheds.com.au/images/pricelist.pdf By time time I stuffed around and paid an engineer to certify it I am not sure if I would even be better off. I would certainly want some form of insulation. Its like an oven inside a metal shed in summer. Hellish working conditions and not good for pot time.

    7.5 x 12 x 3.6 2 Roller Doors 3000 high x 3150 wide Gable End $6,400
    9 x 18 x 3.6 2 Roller Doors 3000 high x 3150 wide Gable End $10,800
    12 x 12 x 5 1 Roller Door 4600 high x 4100 wide Gable End $11,100
    12 x 18 x 5 1 Roller Door 4600 high x 4100 wide Gable End $14,000
    15 x 18 x 5 1 Roller Door 4600 high x 4100 wide Gable End $17,200
    18 x 18 x 5 1 Roller Door 4600 high x 4100 wide Gable End $19,300

    In the end, I think its just not feasible where I live. I'm currently thinking of setting up my super fund to be self managed and investing it into and industrial shed. Prob is most don't have doors big enough.

    Groper. That first cat is awesome. Do you know which pescott design it is? I also know of 44cruising cat. I have had correspondence with him and he has replied to a mirror thread of this thread on the cruisers forums. Those wooden cats look very luxurious, but a bit too "condomaran" for my taste. Still awesome builds.
     
  10. Wand
    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 22
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Australia

    Wand Junior Member

    Nothin bad about your age at all; as far as I remember, it was fabulous! Of course I wish I knew then what I know now, but then all crumblies say that. A few of us on this forum have sounded the alarms but if you've heard them and decided nevertheless to push on, then I say allabest to ya! Cheers
     
  11. groper
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 2,467
    Likes: 123, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 693
    Location: australia

    groper Senior Member

    Off prescotts website, he calls it the "toocanooze 50" It was a joint / custom design between the owner and Prescott. And yes, i love it too, the open plan, non enclosed living spaces are perfect for the tropical climate.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    2 people like this.
  12. waikikin
    Joined: Jan 2006
    Posts: 2,336
    Likes: 113, Points: 73, Legacy Rep: 871
    Location: Australia

    waikikin Senior Member

    I gotmy shed from Tristeel in Molong, bit different to deal with, they advertise in the "Land" newspaper, mines 29m x 10m x 6 high, the doors I got are used on aircraft hangars & use a track to hang off up top with vertical panels that can go around the inside of the front corner, for what it's worth though you could easily deconstruct the front wall of a shed to get a boat out. I got the option of 2 x longtitudinal mono rails at 6m centers & hung a couple of cross rails from these with beam trolleys, this set up makes it easy to move stuff around short handed. The super investment thing is a great idea, you get control of your dough.... there's no guarantees from the funds when it comes to returns! Jeff.

    here's my set up http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=20458
     

  13. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,002
    Likes: 86, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 933
    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    Those prices are pretty good. Now add to them the cost of a full slab, insulation and a generous wiring budget, lights etc. I was fortunate to pick up a literal truckload of the big 5' twin fluoro lights for free. Add a couple of personal access doors, maybe 1 set into the big roller door, 1 in the side and 1 in the far end. This helps with ventilation. I have windows as well but rarely/never actually open them.

    The only thing I'd do differently for my shed (other than adding 4m to the end because I'm greedy for space) is to go higher. 5.1m would be excellent. Mine is 4.5m and I regard this as minimum.

    Another boat builder I know has a steel shed and it's working out fine for him. The portal frames (I used web trusses) effectively give him more headroom just where he needs it, over the hull.

    One reason I built a timber framed shed was, every time I've built a steel framed one, one of the first things I've done was build non-structural walls to hold insulation, hang tools, zone areas for different activities etc. This time round I decided to just do it all in hardwood framing. However I got the timber from a local mill, cut to my specification, at a very good price.

    Here's a bit of a shot of the inside of my shed, taken from the mezzanine floor. The hull has a 4' draft so most cat hulls would sit a bit lower. The shed is an American barn type with the gable roofed centre bay and 2 skillion wings. One side contains metalworking equipment and a 'clean' room for mechanical assemblies; the other contains woodworking equipment and timber racks. I used laserlite for the sides of the gables and this lets in a ton of light. I don't recommend laserlite in the roof; in your hot climate you'll cook, in my climate I'd get condensation in winter. A friend did this and had to change it out.

    I highly recommend the mezzanine floor. A lot of my woodworking gear (the lighter stuff) has migrated up here and this saves me endless trips up & down a ladder. I built a 4' wide stair case with the run/rise as per the building code. It's easy & safe to walk up there carrying a 8x4 sheet of ply.

    PDW
     

    Attached Files:

Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.