Builder's Open - Any Thoughts?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by tmark, Sep 8, 2006.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest


    Greg Ketterman(Hobie Trifoiler), Dr. Sam Bradfield(Rave,Skat Eifo), Bill Burns(CBTFCO) and Yves Parlier(Mediatis Region Aquitaine-stepped 60' planing cat) and ,I'm sure, many others all built radio controlled models to test the concepts embodied in their designs and consider the results obtained extremely relevant.
  2. tmark
    Joined: Sep 2006
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    tmark Junior Member

    Thanks to all for the input ...

    Consensus seems to be building here and outside this forum that more restrictions are better. At the same time, I spent the weekend discussing multifoil options, multihull options, odd sailplans and all sorts of weirdness with a group of accomplished sailors ... the only consensus was that everyone should put their money where their mouth was, build a boat and see what shakes out next spring. Oh ... and drop the monohull restriction.

    Does anyone want to offer a spirited defense of the original Builder's Open class rules, (with monohull restriction dropped)?

    Keeping in mind that the spirit of this project is for the builder him/herself to DESIGN, BUILD and SAIL a boat with a target date of May 2007, does anyone want to offer their own class rules for a Builder's Open?

    Much regard, Trevor

  3. Figgy
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    Figgy Senior Member

    It all sounds good to me! Maby restrict the amount of channels like Sharpii2 said. How many people in your area are thinking about attending?
  4. longliner45
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    longliner45 Senior Member

    let anything go ,,,and when the smoke clears ,you will see what is best! in regardesto mono or multi.
  5. tmark
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    tmark Junior Member

    It's been less than a week since the proposal first came up. That said, 2 are committed, 2 could go either way, and then there is a whole lot of hot air.

    Given that they're all sailors and none of them are model builders who knows what might happen ... much posturing and opinonating at worst, a fully engaged bunch of folk at best.

    If the project gains momentum I'll send some flyers out to the regional sailing clubs and if anyone has suggestions as to appropriate online boards and forums I'll post there as well.

    How about at your end, Figgy ... any acquaintances or clubs who might like a go?
  6. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    Dear Tmark:

    Here's my take. Is eight too many?


    1.) Owner built.
    2.) Owner driven.
    3.) 75 cm Length max.
    4.) 25 cm draft max.
    5.) 1200 gm weight min.
    6.) 50% ballast ratio (including foil or strut)
    7.) 3 RC channels max.
    8.) No computer chip (except for RC reciever)

    I would also suggest the following Course requirements.

    1.) Course must be 30 cm deep min.
    2.) Wind strength must be 3kts min. and 16kts max.
    3.) Course must be a triangle with each leg being 30 meters min. and no leg being more than 50% longer than any other.


    1.) The course must be agreed upon by all participants before the race. And, preferably, before the boats are built.

    OK. Now I've got nine to eleven rules. But now everyone would know what they're dealing with. And the race course can not be set up to greatly advantage or disadvantage any single participant.
  7. granite
    Joined: Oct 2005
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    granite Junior Member

    How do you define owner built?

    is purchasing a Carbon rod for the mast outside the owner built concept.

    You could go totally crazy and say that you have to build the whole thing from a peice of tree.
    i.e cut and shape all the wood, make your own paper for the sails

    you may need to allow glue but everything else could come from a log of wood.
  8. tmark
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    tmark Junior Member

    Defining Owner Built

    Original rules apply to hull, appendages, rig and sails ... the spirit of the project as stated is to "reward what's in your head, not your mailbox" ... you're right to ask, Granite, we'll need to make that crystal clear before codification ...
  9. Figgy
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    Figgy Senior Member

    Add Owner Designed, and dump the wind strength min/max.
    I guess you cant prove who designed it though.

    I like it!
  10. Figgy
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    Figgy Senior Member

    NO MOTORS! Dont want to see a sail boat with a prop sticking out of the back.
  11. Crag Cay
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    Crag Cay Senior Member

    I have a copy of Peter Johnson's book "Yacht Rating - Speed, Success and Failure" on the shelf here. Reading it you marvel at the mess people have made of organising something as simple as a sailing boat race. Surely two boats, a start and finish and away you go?

    There's also been threads critical of the Volvo and America's Cup races, but I think this 'Builder's Open' shows clearly what a fraught process it can be!

    I think firstly you need to decide what you want to be the outcome. Is it to generate 'blue sky' originality, or to refine a given concept. To achieve the first objective, you might want to prescribe a straight course (broad reach) and then put an upper limit of say two hundred dollars of materials per boat (reciepts to be kept!). Give some idea of the conditions (open water / sheltered and depth of water, likely wind strenghs, etc) and see what turns up. (..then when the smoke clears....etc)

    If you would rather favour the other sort of race, ie the development of a known concept, then Sharpii2 has already had a stab at a suitable list of rules. But even though some rules may seem to mearly restrict costs, they can also be 'type' forming. Already draft, ballast ratio, windstrength (rig size), min weight, are dictated.

    But ultimately if you want a race, you have to offer something that others want to do. You need people to show up with their boats! The Admiral's Cup died in Britain because, whatever the merits of the event on paper, and whatever its history - it became a game that no one else wanted to play. Say what you like about the America's cup, criticise the boats, the TV spectacle, the venue, etc, etc, but for the people who really matter (ie those with the money) it's an event that is as appealling to them now as in any time in its history.
  12. Earl Boebert
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    Earl Boebert Senior Member

    Johnson's book is interesting, and of course the classic is Charles Poor's "Men Against the Rule" (which Johnson, interestingly enough, does not cite).

    After studying these things for a while I tend to agree with L. Francis Herreshoff that the best rule is a sail area only rule. For RC models I'd carry it a step further and have a single vendor for sails, the way some American classes have single vendors for hulls. Stock sails, and a maximum distance from top of sail to bottom of bulb, would be it.

    If you're going to have an LOA class, then rather than play with canting keels (holes in the hull and all that) I'd experiment with a sliding rig:

    With a little ingenuity you should be able to slide the rig with the sail winch; sails out, rig back and vice versa. If you really wanted to get fancy, move the winch at the same time and alter the CG. Good-bye diving tendency :)


  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest


    Tmark , just noticed you are from Toronto. Have a friend there -Magnus(Soling, I14, C Class cat sailor) who ,with some friends,put together a class similar to what you're proposing. If I remember correctly, it has some kind of "buy -out " clause to keep cost's down. He can explain it better. He's expecting to hear from you. I'll PM you with his e-mail address.
  14. high on carbon
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    high on carbon Wing Nut

    Magnus here.

    That's Etchells, not Solings, they're for little people.

    Yes we did the gr and prix one meter rule. Basically one meter long in sailing condition, rig, hull and foils, and that was it. 4 channel limit.

    In theory we had a claiming rule but we never used it. Everyone built lots of different boats and there was some fun ideas but we ran out of steam when a few guys started doing a really good job building them. When everyone in the fleet sails 14's you have a group of people who all know how to use carbon and are not afraid to do so.

    We had some great multihulls and monos, cats and tris. We still get together to race in the fall mostly at the pond in Etobicoke.

    A decent multi built well and sailed well should smoke a monohull although at 75cm it may not go so well, to light to even go through the waves and chop.

    Wind speed restrictions? Put down your purse man and go sailing!

    4 channels, nobody ever used that many. Until you sail RC for a while 2 channels can screw up most decent sailors for a while, 4 is a total distraction.

    Only having to measure one thing is also easier to deal with, there's always less cheating if there is no rules.

    If you live in a Toronto, just specify the Etobicoke pond as the venue and you automatically restrict some things like keel length. Fred had one boat with a 4 foot long keel on a one meter boat, made a fine weed harvester.

    I would build one but it seems a bit small for me, I'm going to bigger models these days myself.

    When you settle on a rule, let me know, I might bang one off.


  15. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest


    Etchells. I knew that.....
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