Budget long range cruiser fit for Pacific crossing - Ideas ?

Discussion in 'Powerboats' started by KeithO, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Re the drawing in post #13, as per the quote and its continuation, I've just read that even repentance and remission of sins is in deadrise . . :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  2. KeithO
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    KeithO Junior Member

    Thanks for the reference to Idlewilde, one I was not aware of.
     
  3. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    You realize that your budget is a fair bit short of that of a recent 29' Pacific rowboat build? You need to be setting aside several millions of dollars to make this happen. You can't purchase the materials to build a boat for less than the cost of buying one from a manufacturer. They save enough on materials to cover all their labor, overhead, and marketing.

    What is the smallest/cheapest motorized passage across the Pacific that you are aware of? How do you plan to navigate and signal? If not by sextant and semaphore, then you probably need close to $100,000 just in the electrical installation and instruments.

    Here's one of Tad Robert's offerings - Passagemaker Lite 80 - Tad Roberts' fast, seaworthy, fuel-efficient long-range passagemaker https://www.passagemakerlite.com/designs/passagemakerlite-80
     
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  4. philSweet
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    philSweet Senior Member

    Nice boats all, but do you know if any of these have ever crossed the Pacific?
     
  5. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    The <$100K budget is still the aim ? Seems impossible in anything other than a sailboat of some kind, and that would be basic to say the least.
     
  6. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    For the <$100K budget, here's a 1973 Cheoy Lee 40 (spare link) for ± $5K or less is my guess, to be increased with the rebuild and conversion costs to come....

    1973 Cheoy Lee 40 with fiberglass hull, location Wilson Yachts Gates Marine Service in Deale, MD, USA, 2019 asking US $ 9,900
    1973 Cheoy Lee 40 2019 for sale Wilson Yachts Gates Marine Service Deale MD USA asking USD 9900.jpg

    — check whole boat and if OK then rebuild all in and out — and some passagemaker conversion suggestions —
    • Remove all weight that's not absolutely necessary for very basic functions.
    • Strip the flybridge of her, since that's air draft and top weight, and mount solar panels on the whole main cabin roof, need space for that.
    • Mount the outside helm on the aft cabin deck, from there sitting in a helm chair you can easily and comfortably look over the main cabin, give it a half deck length awning overlapping the main cabin a bit, with also full solar panels on top, put it all on rails so you can move it to the stern when wanted, and steer under the open sky.
    • Close all windows structurally and put small portholes in, as large windows will be easily smashed by waves.
    • Close the side doors structurally and place only a companionway mid aft on the main cabin, and three centerline escape hatches.
    • Build and place a water maker (subject thread), since this is a power boat drive the watermaker pumps directly from an engine with an automatic and manual on/off switchable coupling and independent alarms on the tanks, and put mounts for the watermaker pumps on the other engine, so you can transfer the system in case of an engine failure.
    • To feed the clean diesel tank mount an by one of the engines directly driven centrifugal diesel water and other contaminants separator, with an automatic and manual on/off switchable coupling and independent alarms on the tanks, and put mounts for it on the other engine, so you can transfer the system in case of an engine failure. (to sell a water diesel mix happens in some 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th world countries, and besides that you can also get condensation and other water plus dirt contaminants and bacteria growth in the fuel tanks, which all needs to be separated from the diesel before it gets to the engines)
    • Completely replace the old and very heavy drivelines by 2 × lightweight ± 45 Hp engines. (3 cylinder diesel, automatic electrically controlled variable turbocharger, raw water intercooler, common rail direct injection, 4 valves per cylinder, automatic adjusted valve timing, hydraulic pushrods, dual circuit cooling system incl. water jacketed exhaust manifold, etc.)
    • Use high reduction gears (±5~6:1) and large diameter low pitch props.
    • Drop the genset.
    • Remove the existing fresh water tankage or use it for fuel, and place a three days fresh water use tank (basic means small) and a same size emergency tank to be switched in use, no pressurized tap system, use unprocessed outboard water as much as possible, have an extra tap for this at the sink, refill the fresh water use tank every day, so the real emergency stock is the amount of five days of normal use, only need 1½ liter (0.4 gal) per person per day in a real emergency, for this the skipper needs to immediately ration in 1 bottle of 1½ liter (0.4 gal) for everyone per day.
    • Add a small gray/black water tank for inland use, which can be always empty at sea.
    • Replace all removed weight by extra and low placed fuel tankage, raise the waterline a bit (± 1 ton) if needed for your range.
    • Carry spare parts for all the for survival of the boat and crew necessary systems, and not less or more than that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  7. fallguy
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    fallguy Senior Member

    I briefly considered bluewater cruising, but opted out on the costs. Make sure and do some cost estimates for your fuel consumption. I wasn't too sure I could afford Hawaii and back, or circumnavigating anything much at all. 8000 miles at say 2mpg is 4000 gallons of fuel, or roughly 16k for the trip. Let's say you double the mileage and cost is still 8k. I just couldn't bring myself to spend that for fuel. And I didn't want to sail. So, I opted for a near shore vessel and am building a nice, small 10M Woods powercat. It should get us 5-6mpg at cruise, but still has a decent top end.

    Anyhow, don't want to be a dream buster, but sailing changes the entire paradigm for you. Much lower operating costs, vessel costs are lower, etc. A bluewater sailing cat is probably a better option than the cruiser for your budget.

    8k will get me a year in a pretty decent marina, or even two years or three in some places
     
  8. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
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    KeithO Junior Member

    Phil, I like your sense of humor...

    The Passagemaker series of yachts makes me think of the way some travel trailers are named, with the word "Lite" thrown on the end, when in fact they are high profile, more than 10' to the roof line and weighing over 5000lb. I'll never forget the first time I towed a rental of that variety with my 3.7 V6 Dodge ram. I pointed it up the on ramp to I94 and floored the gas and not much happened. Flat out I could barely get 60mph and the highest gear I could pull was 4 out of a 6 speed manual transmission..... Going down I 70 on the western slope of the Rockies, the drag of the trailer would hold the truck speed to 55mph if I let off the gas, I didnt ever have to use the brakes in the mountains... I should also say that I seem to recall only passing 1 semi all the way from Michigan to Colorado and that one was having some technical difficulties...

    Anyway, getting back on topic, 2x Cat 3306 engines @ 250hp each and gross of 145k lb sounds like more boat than I need or could affford on the 80' passagemaker Lite. Now the 55' Idlewild was only 30250 lb gross. Its only 10' on the beam vs 17'6 for the Passagemaker Lite 80. Sounds like it was a custom design and built by a Canadian yard in aluminum. The portaging of the boat downriver from where the owner had a ranch was not a minor expense either.... All told the boat spent a little over 200 days at sea doing the circumnavigation travelling 26800 miles. I was not able to find all the details, since the "Idlewild Expedition" web page has been taken down, perhaps because it competes with sales of the book ? I would love to know its mpg compared to the Dashews ? I am rather intrigued that Idlewild used a 55hp single engine. Right now there are 27hp Kubota D1703 engines on Surpluscenter.com for $2800 each brand new. If one added a turbo it would up the power a bit more, but 2 of those gives 55hp easy and redundancy. A Cummins 4BT would also make a great single engine solution.

    Looking at my local source for aluminum plate in 5086, if we assumed that her gross tonnage was all aluminum plate, then the hull material would cost about $107k at $3.57/lb. I dont know how much of the gross weight is in the hull alone, perhaps half ? Aluminum is certainly not cheap. Perhaps there are less hidden costs like with steel for sandblasting and painting.... Even if one built with Corten steel like used with shipping containers, one is currently looking at $0.63/lb by comparison to aluminum. Build it a bit longer instead of wider to compensate for hull weight. My local supplier has sheets 8'x30' available which could eliminate many individual welds, assuming that the plating is developable. The superstructure can certainly be done in aluminum, which is where the weight will really matter and there is a lot less material up there so the cost is not such a great concern.

    Looking at this another way, in composite, if I use the heaviest Triax I know of, 22oz, the reinforcement costs $0.48/sq ft and the Epoxy costs $0.73/sqft (equal weight to glass). Multiply by the number of plies and sqft of hull area for a solid fiberglass laminate (nothing like a glass mat or chopped roving boat with polyester resin at all). If you add PVC core @ 16mm thick that adds $1.95/sqft. 1" PVC core is almost exactly $3/sqft. The result would certainly be a lot lighter and the design would have to take it into account so that it would float correctly at her DWL... In the little piece I got to read on Idlewild, she was apparently prone to pound badly going windward. I don't know if the situation could have been remedied a bit with some sea water ballast forward or if that was just due to the forward sections being flatter than optimal ? Unfortunately Buehler's data is rather skimpy for me to figure it out.

     
  9. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    The PL 80 isn't a fair comparison to the 55' IW, which is better to compare with the PL 46+

    George Buehler's 55' Idlewild (aluminum)
    LOA: 54' 11"
    LWL: 52' 6"
    Beam: 10' 10"
    BWL: 10' ½"
    Draft at DWL: 3' 6"
    Displacement: 30,248 lbs
    Fresh Water: 400 US gal
    Fuel tankage: 1,000 US gal
    Main propulsion: 1 × 55 Hp
    Some crosswind steadying and auxiliary sailing rig options are shown on the drawings, also at Ullin.

    Tad Roberts' Passagemaker Lite 46+ (sheathed strip or cold-molded wood construction)
    LOA: 48' 6"
    LWL: 47' 5"
    Beam: 11' 6"
    Draft: 3' 0"
    Displacement: 31,000 lbs
    Fresh Water: 200 US gal
    Fuel tankage: 860 US gal
    Main propulsion: 2 × 59 Hp
    Optional is an aluminum A frame mast with a 450 sq. ft. crosswind steadying and auxiliary sailing rig, and outrigger poles for paravane stabilizers.​

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The PL 46+, L 48½' × B 11½' × D 3' × displ 31 K lbs, looks roomier and more comfortable in a seaway to me, maybe she needs a length stretch or a bit more beam to carry the extra weight of an aluminum version build in PC 6~7 polar ice class . . ?
    55' Idlewild, L 54'10" × B 10'10" × D 3½' × displ 30¼ K lbs, ± 2003 George Buehler design, Ben Gray ± 2004 first launch, circumnavigation via the Northwest Passage in ± 2005 ~ 2006, in ± 2006 she came for sale.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    P.S.the PL 46 (not the 5% length stretched version, which is + 2½' in length, and + 2" draft, and + 2 K lbs displ.)

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    (note the bulbous bow under the waterline)

    PL 46 and PL 46+

    ‘‘ Speed: 11.5 knots (top), 10 knots (cruise), 8+ knots (ocean crossing) ’’

    PL 46, the foam cored fiberglass and multi-chine aluminum plate options also go for the 5% length stretched PL 46+, I'll guess...

    ‘‘ Construction: Round bottom sheathed strip or cold-molded (3 layers) wood construction. Foam cored fiberglass construction option. Multi-chine aluminum plate construction. ’’
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  10. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Well to compare, does Dashew have a design of comparable displacement and power . . ?

    55' Idlewild: ‘‘ L 54'10" × B 10'10" × D 3½' × displ. 30¼ K lbs. ’’

    From a blog, which info looks to be copied from Ben Gray's former Idlewild Expedition website: ‘‘ It is a powerboat with a 55 hp motor. We get about 6.5 kts (7.5 mph) with a fuel burn of 1.3 US gallons per hour and a 1,000 gallons of fuel on board the range is 5,000 miles. We also carry 400 US gallons of water. ’’

    1.3 US gallons per hour / 6.5 kts = 0.2 US gallons per nautical mile at a speed of 6.5 knots

    1,000 US gallons / 5,000 miles is also 0.2 US gallons per NM, which with 20% reserve gives a max planable safe range of 4,000 NM.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  11. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    There's a lot of Idlewild info for sale for little, but not from unbiased sources as far as I know, don't know if Ben Gray's book is such.

    Ben Gray - An Incredible Journey: The Idlewild Expedition

    George Buehler - Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding for the 21st Century (2014 edition)

    The latter book, besides a lot of general building info, also contains for 10 of George's designs the plans and all the info which is needed to build them from from, small drawings and not all, but everything essential is there. Among those is the 45' Little Ullin, which is a 10' length shrunk version of 55' Idlewild and 55' Ullin, the beam hasn't been shrunk though, but is 2" increased vs. her longer sisters.

    Buehlers Backyard Boatbuilding for the 21st Century 2014 page 373 Little Ullin 45 ft offsets.jpg
    Little Ullin: LOD 45' - LWL 43' 4" - Beam 11' - Draft DWL 3' 4" - Displ. 26¼ K lbs - 60 Hp power - transom hung rudder - interior comfortably ‘‘drinking six, feeding four, and sleeping two’’

    George used to sell for 3 of his designs the study plans for $ 50 if ordered as emailed .dwg file and when available as such, maybe his office is still operated by Susan or Gail or someone else, worth a phone call or an email I think.

    The book Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding used to be free with all full building plans sent within the US.

    Full plans were: 55' Idlewild $ 2,995 55' Ullin $ 2,295 45' Little Ullin* $ 995 (US $)

    * Complete plans and/or lines and offsets available on AutoCad disk if builder has facilities to “read” it, and study plans available as .dwg file.

    George Buehler Yacht Design office maybe Susan or Gail.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  12. KeithO
    Joined: Jul 2019
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    KeithO Junior Member

    Angelique, thank you for your multiple contributions to this thread. I own Buehlers backyard boatbuilding and the Troller Yacht book and also Voyaging under power by Bebe.

    FYI, I am of French decent, but my ancestors had to flee the catholic church to the Netherlands and then after some years they were part of the wave of migrants who settled in South Africa, ultimately fighting the British in the 2 anglo boer wars. My grandfather was captured near Ficksburg in the Oranje Vrystaat and was sent to a POW camp in Ceylon, it was called the Diyatalawa POW camp and was in the mountains, which was fortunate for him and us since that meant that he avoided malaria and yellow fever which killed a lot of others at lower elevation... There you have todays useless piece of trivia...

    Back to the topic, based on your info below, at a speed of 6.5 kt and 1.3gph fuel burn that works out to exactly 5nm/gal fuel burn which is very good indeed. In fact the best fuel consumption I have read of.

    Based on the tankage stated, there is 7000lb of diesel onboard in the main tanks and 3340 lb of water, so nearly 1/3 of the rated displacement. I will have to do a bit more digging to figure out the weight associated with the engine and transmission. I have done quite a bit of searching with Google but find very little info on bare hull weights in different materials, especially in composite.

     
  13. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Think the 55 Hp engine on the low and narrow 55' Idlewild of 30,248 lb is for most of the time operating near its max efficiency, but has little reserve power for emergency situations, although they did manage to go around the world with it. The 6.5 kts saves fuel too vs. the faster figures of most others, as eg. a 143 Hp Nordhavn 46 of 48,320 lb seems to be unable to go as slow as 6.5 kts on it's one main engine, so don't know any figures of such boats at 6.5 kts to compare with Idlewild's mpg. Idlewild's tankage is impressive vs. boats of much larger displacement, but don't know if her stability compares...

    Boats.com - top choice - Nordhavn 46 - August 25, 2000

    Like most magazine articles the story itself is only praising because they want to sell ads for the boats they write about, posted here for the mentioned figures, as those seem plausible.

    ‘‘ . . . . Power is supplied by the John Deere-based Lugger L-6414 diesel of 143 hp., turning a 3-bladed 30" × 22" prop through a Borg-Warner 3:1 reduction gear. In lieu of a second engine, PAE has a unique optional Yamaha* 27hp. sailboat diesel, driving a folding Martec prop through a V-drive, as the "get-home" power. The auxiliary unit will push the yacht at 5 knots, but will have minimal drag when not in use. . . . . ’’

    * should be Yanmar I think, and it works only as long as the cause of the engine malfunction isn't a fouled diesel problem, and the emergency engine gets its fuel from the same tankage, also the emergency engine is to small for adverse situations.

    ‘‘ . . . . Unlike most motoryachts, the Nordhavn carries 8000 lb. of internal ballast that, combined with a low center of gravity, provides positive stability to 150° roll-down, which is considerably more than that required of ocean racing sailboats. In addition, the full length keel with attached rudder gives excellent directional stability and protects the prop from damage.

    The mast is intended both to lift a shoreboat off the boat deck and to carry a steadying sail during passagemaking, and it is reinforced to withstand the load from stabilizing paravanes as well. A foremast is an option that would allow speed increases from sail power, although the Nordhavn already has a remarkable range on the 1000 gallon tankage.

    During our radar speed testing, the Nordhavn clicked off 8.25 knots at 1800 rpm with fuel consumption at 3 gph (3200+ mile range), while slowing to 7.4 knots at 1600 rpm gave 2 gph. and a range of more than 3700 miles! . . . . ’’
    (note that's without reserves)

    ‘‘ Speed vs RPM
    1600 - 7.4 k
    1700 - 7.8 k
    1800 - 8.25 k
    1900 - 8.6 k
    2000 - 8.8 k ’’
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  14. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member


  15. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
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    fallguy Senior Member

    Neither is the price per pound, so two wrongs might be getting you closer to right, but I doubt it.
     
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