Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldsailor7, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. PHTCA
    Joined: Jul 2013
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    OS7, the big problem where i live is the MARINE WOOD needed, if i can build with NORMAL wood and apply fiberglass, i will do whichever, but, as i have A LITTLE experience with FG, it will be my first option. Even i want to build a small 22-24 to HAVE A BOAT, i am still studing the B28 plans (And if i can get B33 better) to try to understand the design and the manner to build it with fiberglass.
    Talking about fiberglass, we can get EASY AND CHEAP poly and Vinylester resin, maybe some kind of EPOXY too, but, do not sure if the correct to boat (Or even a LONGEZ), i will continue asking my provider, but, can i made these boat with POLY/VINYLESTER RESIN?
     
  2. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Corley epoxy coated

    Do you have access to any core materials? A Polyester resin fibreglass/PVC foam sandwich type build is a very effective way to build a multihull. Polyester resin with fiberglass cloth and csm bulking is too heavy to give a good result.
     
  3. PHTCA
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    OS/, foam, balsa or divinycell, Corecell, airex? i think YES --I Will Ask--. I can also get plywood, cedar, MDP, HR, ferrule, linnet, wenge, YES.
    Balsa too, but, too expensive for a boat.
    Fiberglass/PVC is the option i am thinking.
    But, as i am mechanical engineer, i think the WEIGHT i add, the payload i take out.
    Example, if the empty weight is 1000 lbs built with wood, and payload is 1000 lbs, if i build it with FG and empty is 1300, the only problem is that the load will be 700 lbs, right?
     
  4. Corley
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Corley epoxy coated

    The contention that extra weight equals less payload is correct but just keep in mind most multihulls come out heavier than their plan weights and sometimes payload estimates don't take into consideration basically essential equipment like outboards etc. I'm not sure if that's the case with the Bucc24 OS7 and BruceB would be able to give more input on that.
     
  5. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    bruceb Senior Member

    a weighty subject

    :D My boat weighs 1650 lbs empty :( I weighed it. Mine is built of 1/4" fir ply which I estimate adds 200- 250 lbs, and my floats have a-board trunks and heavy decks- adding about another 75 lbs. My non stock mast, foil and motor mount add about 35 lbs, for a total of aprox 335 lbs. Say 1300 lbs if built to specs with 4mm/ 3/16" light ply. I think Crowther estimated weight with an un-coated build, which would save another 150 lbs at least, so his original "1000" lbs displacement is not too far off, but you probably would not want a boat built that way.
    Most every boat I have ever weighed has been heavier than "published", and the Buc is still a very light boat for its size. It could be built lighter using some more modern methods/materials, but 4mm light ply will produce a very light and strong boat.
    My boat sails fine up to around 2200 lbs total, above that performance and sea-keeping drops off rapidly. Bucs have to be kept light, and empty:cool:
    B
     
  6. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    PHTCA.
    You say you live in "Americas", which I take to mean somewhere in South America. So will experience a hot climate. just beware of Airex. It will bend easily without heating for laying up on a mould, but softens with heat and should not be used for decks, as it softens in Sunlight. YOU will need to paint your topsides in white or light colours for the same reason. Klegicell is stiffer but has to be heated to bend it. not really a problem.
    Since you want to build quickly, the idea of laying up foam/glass sheets and building the boat as though it was sheet ply should be quick and easy. It would be light too. Just use polyester resin for wetting out the glasscloth,it works fine.
    The first three boats I built before the B24 were all Douglas Fir-- Oregan). Heavy and rot easily in fresh water unless built using the WEST method.
    A lot of boats (including some of mine) have been built in "good one side", exterior grade ply, taking care to avoid voids in the inner plys.
    My B24 was built with a soft and light Mahogany called "Samba", which I think was actually "Luan". It had a 3mm core with 1.5mm skins on the outside. I had absolutely no problems with it. I glued it up with epoxy glue and staples. I could have used bronze ringnails, but staples in a gas gun are so very much quicker. Powered staple guns can be hired. Much cheaper than buying one unless you intend to become a multiple boat builder,as I unintentionally did. :)
     
  7. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: South Lake Western Australia

    redreuben redreuben

    I would question wether you can save much weight on a b24 with foam glass without the boat being terribly fragile ?
    Happy to be proved wrong though :)
     
  8. oldsailor7
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    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    RR.
    I found that foam/glass, properly utilised, was very strong and durable, with no extra weight penalty.
    I said "properly utilised".
    If not done properly it can end up heavier than wood, but it would never be too frail or short lived.
    I think Bruce can tell you of a B33 which he recently examined, which was built in Foam/fibreglass, by my company forty years ago. It was very fast and seaworthy.
     
  9. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Os7,
    For the 33 I have no doubt and maybe the 28 but for the 24 I am still doubtful.
    Hard to beat ply for small craft without spending lotsa $$$$$$$
     
  10. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    foam or ply

    I have not done a real cost/materials comparison except for the floats, but I think almost the whole 24 could be built of flat bagged and/or infused foam glass panels with a substantial weight reduction. The floats are simple structures, but with them, the weight savings "could" be 20% or more with no reduction in strength- but they would be more fragile and more prone to surface dings than 4mm ply. I have made quite a few test panels of various combinations of glass/resin/ply/foam and have weighed and destroyed them to get a feel for real world performance and my home shop realities.
    Expense is at least twice as much as 4mm ply/epoxy/glass here in the US. My "best" combination was 6oz glass/1/8" ply/1/2"builders foam/6oz glass all vacuum bagged with epoxy resulting in a .8 lbs/sq foot panel that is strong and tough. The ply can be left out in areas that are not subject to impact or foot traffic.
    Many of the stringers can be left out of low load areas as well, as the panels are very stiff.
    The composite panels and resulting boat would be a "prototype", and should not be trusted until well tested. BEWARE!
    The extra labor and cost could only be justified for a boat that HAD to be very light to be competitive, or wanted to avoid wood with its long term problems. The Buc, as designed and carefully constructed, is certainly ok for most uses.
    B
     
  11. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Aah Bruce, was hoping you would chip in !
    What is builders foam ?
    Impact resistance is best enhanced with S-glass but again more $$$
    Not sure if I would mix ply and foam, more glass is simpler !
     
  12. redreuben
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    redreuben redreuben

    Bruce what is the state of play with your float foils ?
    Have they given the result you wanted ?
    Do they make the centre board redundant ?
     
  13. bruceb
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    bruceb Senior Member

    materials and boards

    RR, I don't want to get too far into a materials discussion on this thread, but that layup is an experiment for a light set of floats for MY boat- almost disposable- so very cheap materials. The ply only goes on the walked on areas of the decks and on the outside upper float's skin to help prevent dock dings. Enough glass to get the same impact performance was heavier. (and glass is also more expensive). More or thicker glass would be used in high load areas, including glass chain plates. I have constructed test samples/panels of most of the design details and tested them to destruction and I have learned a lot about real world construction. The "builder's foam" is medium density roofing insulation foam, easily available here, and cheap. I use it in construction. I certainly don't want any wood on the inside of the floats, as I have never been able to keep them completely moisture free, and proper ventilation is not practical on the floats. I haven't built a complete float so final weight is just speculation, but IMO they would be VERY light. Of course, they might break:(
    The first set of boards I built are too large, stick in the trunks, and seem to provide more lift/drag than optimum. I have "profiled" a couple of pine boards with a 9" cord that seem to be about right, and with a better airfoil shape I think they will be very effective. I still expect to use a center dagger, but a much smaller one. The boards might be enough for day sailing and cruising. I have been busy working, and I have not had enough play time for my boat.:mad:
     
  14. PHTCA
    Joined: Jul 2013
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    PHTCA Junior Member

    Boys, you know i also searching an easy to build boat before a big B28/33 build, and searching and searching, i found www.pkboatplans.com
    I see 2 boats, the light weight and appear the easy to build. K-28 and K8500, around 1300 kg. Both 28 ft monohull, but, if they are the same INTERIOR and easy exterior design as Pirate http://www.r-boat.org/html/rab/060525-07163.jpg and http://www.r-boat.org/html/rab/060512-03732.jpg i think a good boat to build.
    So, what do you think about these boats (PK are built with fiberglass).
     

  15. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    bruceb Senior Member

    off topic

    PH, I think most people here are willing to help, but I think you are getting off topic for this thread. Personally, I don't have a clue about the other boats you have mentioned, and viewing the web site didn't help. My problem, not yours- I just don't know enough. They, and others may be fine, but IMO, you need to find a MUCH smaller boat, build it, and then come back if you are still interested in a Buc. There are also many other open threads on this forum that might have more of the information that you are interested in.
    B
     
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