Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldsailor7, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Location: auckland nz

    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Ah, very well done, Bruce, congratulations, welcome to foil craziness. Just looking, they are too big, too much drag; you'll find the higher aspect ratio foils considerably better, especially in light airs.
    Check out NF3's foil sizes - and that boat has no floats, just foils to supply "buoyancy." The other is Misguided Angel, the quite small area outward facing foils were an experiment but they worked fine. Not applicable to your B24 because a central hull dagger was also carried. Later the main beam broke when boat was on the hard in 70 knot storm, hence the later, slightly less, deeper section, square length/beam version. Apologies for rambling off subject.
     

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  2. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    lift off?

    Thanks Gary- learning is fun:), but it surely takes a lot of sanding:( On a sort of related question, what speed do your foiler tri's take to "lift"? B
     
  3. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    foils

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    Way to go, Bruce! If you could try a test with less area and more aspect ratio you might be surprised. Something like 7/1(underwater) is ideal and you have 3.5/1. Everybody that I've talked to has always stressed the importance of aspect ratio on hydrofoils. Greg Ketterman says: "Aspect ratio is everything on hydrofoils".
    Enjoy!
     
  4. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    foils

    My aspect ratio was the result of UPS shipping restrictions- my foam cores were from a model aircraft foam cutter and anything over 6' gets really expensive to ship. (They can supply 8' cores) Once I have built new ones, I might even cut these shorter- I have found they work pretty well with just 30" exposed, and would be really nice for shallow water cruising so they are not at all wasted effort. I am cheap and lazy:rolleyes:, so I did it the easy way as a start. The next set will be higher aspect, but I won't need them until next spring so I have some time to develop them better. They are nice winter indoor projects. B
     
  5. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    some buc power boat numbers

    While I was testing my foils, I did some runs under power- center dagger half down, no foils, lightly loaded, smooth water, 5hp two stroke. WOT was around 6.5-7kts depending on wind direction, and mid throttle cruise was 5-5.5 kts and very efficient, burning around a gallon an hour or less. B
     
  6. so_cal_sailor
    Joined: May 2011
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    Location: so cal

    so_cal_sailor Junior Member

    daggerboard case

    I'm almost ready to put the daggerboard case together, and there are few things I'm a little unsure about. Many times fasteners mean that something is meant to be taken apart at some point in time, but I'm assuming that in this case, they are a more of a permanent "clamp" intended to keep things together if there is an overload (impact?) and everything should be glued together. Is this correct? Also, should the inside be coated with anything else in addition to a few coats of epoxy over the fiberglass cloth? Any tips, "don't do this", make sure ... etc. with the daggerboard case before/when I glue it together?

    Thanks,
    David
     
  7. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    case study

    :p David, nice to hear of some progress! IMO!!! Once the case is installed, it is not coming out easily, so I would treat the trunk as a one time build and expect any fasteners to be permanent. My trunk was glassed/epoxied on the sides but not glassed on the ends- and that is where it rotted. When I build a trunk now, I glass the inside skins(sides) first, then wrap the vertical end strips with glass and clamp and fasten the whole thing together, and really coat everything with extra epoxy.
    I would also build the trunk to allow a thicker board to be used. Probably at least a finished inside dimension of 1 3/4"- (1/2" thicker than stock or more). Another more controversial mod would be to make the trunk vertical instead of angled, and use filler blocks to fit the board on the inside. As designed, a longer than stock board runs into the mast when rasied. Just a suggestion;) The stock board is just out of date, much better shapes can be built, and they all require a thicker section to work. Best allow for it now.
    Special attention at the trunk/hull joint is also necessary. The plans leave some decisions to the builder, and studying some other boat's plans and details is in order. Wooden boats all have some troublesome areas, and the trunk is always an issue. Trunks tend to rot on the inside at the waterline while moored , and at the base/hull joint when stored out of the water. B Any pics of your build?:)
     
  8. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Everything Bruce says +.

    I modified my B24 with a vertical board and case with the back of the case level with frame 5.
    This puts the CE of the board in the right place for a balanced helm.
    The top of the case was supported athwartships by 1 x 12 plank pieces, tied into the hull stringers, and frame 5, which made a nice place to sit.
     
  9. so_cal_sailor
    Joined: May 2011
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    Location: so cal

    so_cal_sailor Junior Member

    daggerboard

    Hmm . . . I was planning to build according to the plans. How would these modifications be with respect to light air performance? In this area (San Diego) the normal forecast is "Wind W 10 kt in the afternoon, becoming variable less than 10 kt in the evening". I'm hoping to be able to sail to the islands and back (about 70 nm uphill) on a long weekend.:)
     
  10. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Location: South Lake Western Australia

    redreuben redreuben

    If you have to sail uphill, then do the mods ! I'm sure Bruceb will concur, perhaps even think about a taller rig as per Samnz boat.
     
  11. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    I used to sail in the San Diego area with Norm Cross and so am familiar with the weather. Don't waste your time and money on unnecessary mods. Use a fat head fully battened sail on the stock mast. Put in a vertical daggerboard with a wetted shape 1ft 4" X 3 ft and a rectangular planform. Don't monkey with an elliptical shaped board. The difference in performance is not measurable and it is more important to shape to the correct section which should be NACA 0008. Use a piece of thin ply cut to a female shape to use as a guide when shaping the board. There is ample advice on this thread about how to make the board and box. Make sure your jib lead angles are suitably narrow if you want good windward performance. Properly done the B24 is very fast to windward.
    Do use the roller reefing setup shown in the plans. Also the simple mainsheet/outhaul system. The B24 sails very well on reefed mainsail only, in strong winds.
     
  12. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    rig

    Cal, my boat was re-rigged for racing on Chesapeake bay and the common light air with chop conditions there, and works well on my local lake. Standard fore triangle and a 6' taller rotating mast, which works well, but is a bit overpowered in over 18kts. My current main is about 18" short of full hoist and is a "big" head but not square top. It is plenty for the boat, and a square top main could be even shorter and still provide enough "punch". With my rig and some good light air jibs and reachers, my boat is very fast in light to medium air, and is very easy to sail as long as I reef the main according to conditions. The Corsair 24-mkII and Sprint carry about the same size rig, and can be used as guidelines. A square top main on a sightly fractional rig is a very practical and fast set up if you can find a good mast. Mine was designed for a Stiletto 23. I think Mike Leneman at Multimarine is near your area and should also be able to give some good advice.
    I will slightly disagree with OS :rolleyes:- I built a "long" dagger for my boat (0008 section, 86" overall with about 62"x15" below the hull), and the boat works best in light to medium air with ALL of it down. A smaller board gets overloaded with modern high powered close sheeted sails. As the wind and speed picks up and when reaching, I do bring the board up some. I race with some fast mono sport boats, and the differences in pointing ability/VMG are quickly apparent. Make the board as long as practical, you can always make it shorter:D I also prefer to make my boards at least part foam core, as they are lighter and I would rather the board be the "weak link" and break instead of damaging the hull. I haven't tried the theory, yet;)
    Built and equipped correctly, your Buc will be equal to or a little faster than a Corsair 24, and very easy and forgiving to sail. I think for safety off-shore, positive floatation is necessary. At the speeds a tri can go, it is quite possible to hole most any boat on a floating "object". I have small boat airbags (total weight about 30lbs) in my main hull and floats to provide about 1000lbs total, and I also used two solid bulkheads in each float to give them three separate chambers. I notice Crowther did the same on later designs, as does Corsair. B
     
  13. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Bruce. There is no argument. :D
    Your long and high aspect ratio board is ideal for all out racing and your larger sail area. Since you have no cabin the length of your board is only limited by the height of your boom.
    For general and pleasure use, a lower aspect board of about 4sq ft area is more convenient and safer.
    A cap on the top of the board closes the top of the case when the board is down,---which it is most of the time when sailing, keeping the interior of the boat dry.
    Apart from anything else, the great strength of the B24 is it's ability to move out to windward in light airs.
     
  14. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    fast and wet?

    I do like dry cabins, even if I don't have one yet, and yes, a long board does present "issues". On my own boat, I have added a-boards to the floats, and I think they will allow a much shorter center dagger. Yes, that is a little extreme;) for a 40 year old cruising tri, but sailboats are just for fun, and I AM having fun. :D
    As an aside, ck the new F32 on the F-boat forum-all carbon, three boards, two rudders, really pretty, and probably weighs less than my paint- I am jealous. B
     

  15. oldsailor7
    Joined: May 2008
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    oldsailor7 Senior Member

    Yes Bruce.
    Having raced on the F28R, I can only drool over the idea of the F-32R.
     
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