Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by oldsailor7, Jul 22, 2009.

  1. hump101
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: Brittany, France

    hump101 Senior Member

    What Bruce said, there are excellent fairing fillers for epoxy, very easy to sand, and you'll end up with a more robust surface afterwards. Use a rapid hardener, mix in small quantities.

    If the surface is already pretty good, then mix up a sloppy mix and roller on, drag out whilst still wet, then sand back when dry.

    If you have some obvious flaws, then fill these first with a stiff mix, scrapping well when you put it on to prevent excess, then once it has gelled go immediately over with the rollered and dragged sloppy mix. Sand it all back together when set. It will save you an extra waiting period compared to doing it the other way round.
     
  2. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: Cocoa, Florida

    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Super Fill

    I've used this filler on models and one fullsize boat-it is without a doubt the lightest epoxy based filler I have ever found. Extremely easy to sand. Zero Shrinkage. Disadvantages are cost and time-about 12 hours before it can be sanded:
    http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/superfil.php
     
  3. freddyj
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: kansas

    freddyj Senior Member

    I am going to try a new filler made by Evercoat. It is a hbrid epoxy/polyester and it's supposed to have the adhesion of epoxy, be real easy to sand, and can be used under waterborne paints. It's called Quantum 1. I'll post after trying it out.
     
  4. freddyj
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: kansas

    freddyj Senior Member

    I tried the Quantum 1. Not awfully impressed for the price. Its a little easier to sand than regular filler but not much. It looked like all I needed is a thin skim coat of which most got sanded off, so I finishednthe amas with regular filler. I only spread about a gallon and half on both hulls and sanded moss of it off or so thin the substrate showed thru. I was careful not to sand much epoxy off. I primed them with two coats of urethane 2k primer and hope to spray paint on Saturday. I'm using du pont imron aircraft paint. It's the same paint they use for watercraft except in watercraft they specify a different mix ratio, which is supposed to make it more humidity proof. It is nice to own a bodyshop to do this in. For a few years my painter was a paint rep for dupont aircraft paint, and once they had him fly to Florida to paint a huge yacht, which they actually painted in the water at the dock! He said it was a gold metallic color. Interesting. Anyway, that's how he knows so much about paint chemistry. So that's what I'm planning and I hope the hulls are not too wavy for glossy paint!
     
  5. freddyj
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: kansas

    freddyj Senior Member

    OK, if anyone is interested. I reweighed my hulls now that paint is on. The first one I built weighed 138 before paint. Now weighs 150lbs. The other one weighs 132lbs. The first one weighs more, I believe, because I screwed up learning to fiberglass and had to put on extra epoxy to make it look good.
    Anyway, they turned out much better than I expected, though not as good as I hoped. I am sure, in a 30 knot breeze no one will notice a minor flaw or two! The paint is extremely shiny!

    Fred
     
  6. freddyj
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: kansas

    freddyj Senior Member

    Here's a photo.
     

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  7. dialdan
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    Location: brisbane

    dialdan Junior Member

    Nice work Fred
     
  8. Marmoset
    Joined: Aug 2014
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    Location: SF Bay Area

    Marmoset Senior Member

    Bee-utiful! haha


    Barry
     
  9. freddyj
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: kansas

    freddyj Senior Member

    Now, if I could only finish the mainhull! I've got the hull part done, but I'm stuck on the cabin. I'm debating building a more modern, sleeker cabin. The problem is, while I can follow instructions, designing and building from scratch has my mind boggled. Not sure the best way to go about it. Any ideas will be surely appreciated, because I don't want to waste a bunch of expensive materials building something that will fall apart the first time I hit a big wave. If all else fails, I'll build to plans. It's just that to my eye, it's the cabin that dates the design. Though, OTOH, retro is all the rage these days!
     
  10. Marmoset
    Joined: Aug 2014
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    Location: SF Bay Area

    Marmoset Senior Member

    yeah I'd say stick to plan! haha but few small things here and there can make a big diff. Ive seen a few where they just added a bot more curve in roof and it looked great, yet still resembled the buck we all know and love. Ya don't wanna reinvent the wheel though when you might be in the middle of a lot of water! haha

    Barry
     
  11. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    progress

    Fred, you are doing nice work, and even 150 lbs is not bad for a first try, and 130 lbs is quite good. :cool: You will never notice the difference sailing it.
    I agree that the cabins look a little clunky, but to get the space, the cabins have to be "oversize" for the hull. Don't "over crown" the cabin top, it just makes it really hard to walk on. If you were to decide to build a "modern" cabin, I would consider doing it in mostly foam as it is much easier to shape than ply. You already know how to sand and fair/fill, :rolleyes: so it would not be too much of a stretch for you to learn build with foam. IMO it is actually easier than ply for cabins and such. I would try different window profiles on the plans and a cardboard mock up and see if you can get a slightly sleeker look. I would probably not use front windows at all as they are very prone to leaks.
    B
     
  12. freddyj
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: kansas

    freddyj Senior Member

    Yeah, I've been thinking about trying to build with foam. I'll need to do some research since I've never done it. Hardware store foam probably won't work, correct? With foam there would have to be some major reinforcements for bolt-on hardware, I assume. Lots to learn about it.
    I thought about making the cabin narrower, but then the cockpit would have to be narrower and would lose the "seatbacks" which I like for a more protected cockpit.
    I think I'll spend some time fairing the mainhull while I try to decide on the cabin style.
     
  13. freddyj
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: kansas

    freddyj Senior Member

    Getting some interior work done. Forward berth.
     

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  14. bruceb
    Joined: Nov 2008
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    Location: atlanta,ga

    bruceb Senior Member

    perspective

    That is a view I have never seen in mine :).
    Fred, I am not suggesting it is acceptable, but.. some of the "west coast" style multi builders have used insulation foam for some parts of decks and cabins quite successfully, and I have been using "pink" foam for some of my non-loaded bulkheads and furniture. I have had to go to insulation suppliers though to get 1/2" and 3/4" "roof" grade foam that is a little denser than the usual stuff from the big box stores. Sometimes the local stock just depends what your local building codes require. Yes, even "good" foam has no compression strength at all, so you have to plan (or waste a lot of time redoing) for all your hardware. Its easier on the second boat you build :D.
    FWIW, my 33's hulls were built with 1/2" Airex and a single layer 10 or 12 oz glass in and out, and the hulls are still in good shape 40 years later. I have been using a small layout table for my foam core bulkheads and it is a really fast and easy way to build flat panels that come out almost finished.
    B
     

  15. hump101
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: Brittany, France

    hump101 Senior Member

    Insulating foam and structural foam are completely different. Structural foam has much smaller bubbles in it, making it a relatively poor insulator, but giving decent structural properties (compression and shear, primarily). Insulating foam is much weaker primarily because it is a better insulator - bigger bubbles and less connectivity. You can buy insulating foams with high compressive strength to use under concrete or similar slabs, but to achieve good insulation and compressive strength they tend to be heavy, around double the density of a typical structural foam, and they are still weak in shear.

    I'm not saying you couldn't use an insulating foam in certain applications, but I wouldn't waste the resin and reinforcement cloth over a compromised foam core. Cabin tops take high compressive point loads all over from feet and equipment, as well as wave loading putting the core in shear. If you use a weaker foam you'll need thicker skins, so any cost saving on the core will be compromised.

    The problem we face is that the market for structural foams is tiny compared to the insulating foam market, hence the effects of scale make the structural foams so much more expensive, but you've made such a lovely job of the boat so far, it would be a shame to have issues down the line caused by using an unsuitable foam.

    There was a blog up some time ago of a trimaran build (Denmark or Holland, I forget) in which the builder tested all sorts of different foams in compression, and finally built using an insulating foam with good compression properties. He never checked the shear strength. He got as far as skinning the main hull, and I contacted him to find out how the foam had coped in shear, but never got a response and the boat was never taken any further in the build. I don't know why but suspect the core failed when he tried to turn it over. Would be good to try and get some info from him.

    Personally, if I was in your shoes I would stick with ply and keep it all in wood. The cabin is not the only thing that dates the design, the hulls do too, and since you've already chosen to build a "classic", keep it authentic.
     
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