Buccaneer 24 Builders Forum

clear on join, senior moment confusing pics of 28 build crossing with 24.


Barry

 

Backstays and power

Fred, none of the 24s I have seen used a backstay, just the sidestays. I have duplicated the sidestay set up on my 33, it remains to be seen if it will be enough to keep the forestay tight. I have not removed the rear chainplate yet. On the 24, I have an oversize main and I do use a powerful mainsheet set up- 6x1 with a 3x1 fine tune- 18x1 overall, and sheeting it in hard tightens the forestay just fine.
The Buc-24 only needs about 2 hp to move it around, but I find it needs about 5 hp to hold it head to wind in 15 knots or more breeze, especially with any waves. I have to lower my sails before I head in to a very tight docking situation so the electrics would not work for me. Multis have more windage than same sized monos, and I have found they really like plenty of thrust, forward and reverse. I also get a 5.5-6kt half throttle cruise speed with my 5 hp, nice when the wind dies. I have used both a Mariner 2 stroke long shaft 4 and 5hp engines and the 4 hp has to work pretty hard where the 5 hp doesn't. Anything larger a 6 would be overkill and over weight. My 4 and 5 are each just under 50 lbs.
IMO , If I were buying a new engine today for a B-24, I would really be interested in one of the propane powered ones.
B

 

Here's an old shot of B24 Miranda (pretty stock in those days except for rotating mast and 7/8ths rig) and me taken by owner Malcolm Cheadle during an overnight shorthanded race around Hauraki Gulf islands- but the important point is the tensioning runner on the shroud, sort of a compromise stay and backstay in one (and a half); - very simple, very effective in keeping forestay tight.
We had a main traveller problem an hour or so after start, had to bodgy it up, lost time there but still came in 6th next day ... and an easy first on handicap - we were smallest in fleet.

 

Old photos

That must have been a LONG time ago- that guy in the pic looks young . Nice photo though, thanks
Is that a "stopper" right below the tackle to keep the block up the stay? My new side stays for the 33 are dynex dux, and I am expecting to do something similar or add running backs to the rear corners.
B

 

Young punk I was, yes, look a bit sleepy eyed, helmed all night. Would have been in the mid 1980's.
Yes, that is a stopper.
Another method would be a spllt rigging connection with an eye and shackle at junction.
You can see our lash up with the main traveller in the above shot.
Later went to a curved track instead of the original wire and clutter; see this photograph..

 

Bb - did you ever have to face crossing a coastal bar, or punching into a headwind and chop combined, with your 4 or 5HP?

The rule of thumb Down Under for most trailer sailors (monos) seems to be 5 - 9HP.

So I'm thinking a 24 tri would be better off with the latter, given its greater windage?

Anyone got any thoughts?

Gary what do the Auckland guys use?

 

Power

I am on a lake, but it does get pretty rough at times, and I have used the engine into the high 20s. As long as the prop can mostly stay in the water, the 5 has been enough on my boat. Both my 4 and 5 (almost the same engines)are long shafts with good pusher low pitch props. My motor mount is to the side just behind the rear crossbeam and my mount allows for several different height positions, all of which help. I own several different larger and smaller outboards, but the 5 has been the sweet spot. I can see using a 6 on the coast if I had to deal with currents, but the 5 will push it up to hull speed in most conditions.
B

 

What's the weight/dsiplacement of your boat when laoded for a weekend away?

I had been thinking I'd need a 10-15HP for my boat, but maybe I can get away with a smaller (and lighter) motor).

I have also been contemplating mounting it on a hinged pod, so that it floats up and down with the swell, rather than the prop cpoming out of the water.

Haven't *quite* figured out how to do this as yet, but it's a thought I read about somewhere...

 

Our lot keep our boats moored over tidal flats, not in Auckland marinas (where it is illegal, or heavily frowned upon to use sail only when entering/exiting) - but that is what we mostly do, sail everywhere, don't carry motors - or if so, they are light and low powered versions.
In the two handed races we did on Miranda, we weren't carrying a motor - but this may have changed.
I have always rigged my boats to sail fast in light airs ... when most start eggbeaters - and if it is rough or against tide, sail does the job better than underpowered motors. And lugging heavy and more powerful motors that can counter tide means you're reducing light boat sailing performance. This I know, is too extreme for most sailors but is what I prefer.
Sailing quickly, very quickly, in light winds in light boats is kind of magical to me.

 

Hey, Gary
Appreciate the sentiment, and wish it could be applied to my riverine, estuarine, bar-enclosed sailing environment.

Is there some sort of rule of thumb guide we can use to figure out what is the optimum, or is just trial and error?

 

Buzz, with our largest tides here (3.6m - or more with onshore winds) the current can reach 5 knots so although not as savage as going over bars, still gets your full attention with wind against tide. In those conditions eggbeaters near sterns or even closer to central, jump in and out of the water, not efficient.
Sailing is way superior. Just imo
Here is our tidal environment. Kauri Point in the distance, has falls near the end of Meola Reef and with outgoing tide, can be an unpleasant place.

 

Stink pots

My 24, with powerful rudder, big main and small self-tacking jib can sail and maneuver single handed in places and wind that most boats can't. However, marinas, bridges and other "unnatural" conditions force the need for an engine. Not all of can live, sail and moor on bay
My 24, which was built with heavy 1/4" ply and has probably gained a few pounds over the last 40 years (I know I have), weighs 1650 lbs empty (by an accurate scale), and about 1820 lbs ready to sail. Add a typical 500 lbs of crew, and it is right at its max load. It really doesn't like any more, and adding another 150 lbs crew is slow. It also doesn't like weight aft, and we really work at keeping weight in the middle. I don't remove my engine, but it is under 50 lbs and I have a light mount. Adding even a 6hp four stroke would add another 30 lbs, all in the wrong spot.
Its your call of course, but IMO, using a heavy 90 lbs plus outboard, that is certainly too heavy to remove for sailing, will seriously degrade the sailing performance and not give hardly any better performance under power.
For what it is worth, a good 15 hp engine will give it over 10 kts single handed, (very light), but sure messes up everything else.
As I said, I have several engines.
B

 

Agree with Bruce and Gary that sails and sailing are your biggest friends in almost any condition.
Would like to ad that with a nicely flattened main with tight sheet, even a bit forced to windward if necessary, and a smaller engine you're much more worth punching headwinds and chops than with an bigger engine and no sail.
Even if it means short tacking and even more because the sail will also dampen the horse hobbying plus can save your butt in case the engine quits for whatever reason.
On the 28 ft Newick, about 750 kg empty, there were 2x 4hp four strokes mounted on the wing which gave more than ample power although in 95% I only used 1 engine.
It was handy maneuvering with the 2 remotes, pirouettes were easy peasy, and I guess the almost 10 knot top speed saved me from a freezing in on a lake when a serious cold front (-10/-15℃) set in quicker than expected.
All that power was kind of fun to play with in the beginning but also quite unnecessary so was really thinking of ditching all the noise, smell & weight for some kind of pedal drive If I had been able to keep the boat.

But hey, no really nasty tides or coastal bar crossings over here.

Cheers

 

OK, seems to be a some sort of consensus, 5-6HP is probably enough.

I'm aiming to have my boat at around a tonne 'cruising weight', so compatible with Bb's at equivalent 1150kg.

Sailing mainly solo I'll have a bit of leeway, but that will no doubt be offset by the size of my lardarse.

Modern 6HP long shaft 4-strokes seems to be around 60lb, 26kg. That's with extra long shaft and power prop, like Tohatsu's Sail Drive 6HP.

About $1500 off the rack, with alternator, even. But not with external controls, so probably a bit extra for external throttle.

Does anyone have any idea as to whether or not it's desirable or even feasible to link tiller and outboard for additional thrust when manouvering?

I've seen this on trailer sailor forums, but monos not multis, never mind tris.

Thinking it might make the difference between broaching and not if caught by a wave while bar crossing.

BTW, have never crossed a bar before, as all my previous sailing has been done on Sydney Harbour or Pittwater, but have seen the infamous footage of that idiot in a 40ft cat crossing the Southport bar in a big swell and soooooo do not want to go there....yikes!!

Looking at our 'bar cams' which we have on some of the river mouths here, the bigger runabouts crossing the bar seem to get airborne occasionally, and are definitely surfing coming back in with the swell - and they have 50HP minimum on the transom.....

So am I correct in thinking this is something to be wary of, or do people tend to make too much of 'bar crossings' in general.

Does a tri's inherently better stability counter much of the rolly-poly fear factor..??

 

Only dealt with a few tricky bar crossings and always respected them with utmost care, as any unfamiliar situation in unknown waters.
Talking to local fisherman, harbormaster, rescue or old salts hanging round may provide the knowledge and trust you're looking for. Wouldn't directly trust the first braggy big runabout guy or girl, but could be wrong there. Yes I'm biassed and proved wrong more often than once.
That and the pilots & charts. Never forget the weather.

No worries, you'll work it out and have fun.