bridge design - feedback request

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by expedition, Jun 12, 2009.

  1. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    You may have overlooked that they are using a bus system! So, rewiring is never a issue.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  2. expedition
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    expedition Thorwald Westmaas

    Good point. We'll certainly leave enough space, including for future wiring and antenna cables .
     
  3. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Always remember the top of the line bus system today is obsolete in 5-10 years
    Install raceways, lots of power and flexibility to change from day one.
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I doubt that CAN bus, Ethernet and NMEA 2000 will be out of use within the next 25 years. CAN was developed in 1983!
    But naturally additional space, power and raceways are never wrong. Especially if one is a kind of tinkerer.
     
  5. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Remember 25 years ago, see that 2009 minus 25 = 1984
    1983 Microsoft Windows was announced November, 1983
    1984 Docutel/Olivetti introduce the Olivetti PC, compatible with the IBM PC on January 3.
    1984 On January 4th Netherlands Antilles issues a 45-cent postage stamp of a computer making a newspaper.
    1984 Hitachi announces it has developed the first memory chip capable of holding 1MB on January 5th.
    1984 IBM's AT computer is introduced.
    1984 The MUD was known as MAD becomes the first global MUD and runs across BITNET.
    1984 IBM introduces its first portable computer, the IBM Portable weighing in at 30 pounds.
    1984 SETI is founded.
    1984 ESS Technologies is founded.
    1984 Guillemot is founded.
    1984 Amiga is purchased by Commodore Business Machines on August 15th.
    1984 Bill Gates is featured on the cover of Time magazine.
    1984 The 3.5-inch floppy diskette is introduced and later becomes an industry standard.
    1984 Dell Computer is founded May 3, 1984 in Austin Texas.
    1984 Paul Mockapetris and Jon Postel introduce DNS.
    1984 The now famous Apple commercial is shown during the Super Bowl, the commercial introduces the Apple Macintosh, a computer with graphical user interface instead of needing to type in commands. In six months sales of the computer reach 100,000.
    1984 Dhrystone is developed.
    1984 IBM develops EGA.
    1984 The computer Museum opens in downtown Boston.
    1984 Microsoft introduces MS-DOS 3.0 for the IBM PC AT and MS-DOS 3.1 for networks.
    1984 The Tandy 1000 personal computer is introduced and becomes the best-selling IBM-compatible computer of the year.
    1984 IBM introduces the Enhanced Graphics Adapter (EGA) video card with higher resolution, more colors, and a quicker response then previous video cards.
    1984 University of Southern California professor Fred Cohen creates alarm when he warns the public about computer viruses in his Computer Virus - Theory and Experiments paper.
    1984 The beginning of the greatest adventure computer gaming series is released by Sierra. Kings Quest 1: Quest for the crown is released to the public.
    1984 The Yellow book of CD-ROM standards is written.
    1984 Cirrus is established.
    1984 ISA is expanded to 16-bit capability.
    1985 On January 4th at CES, Commodore introduces the Commodore 128 PC with 8502 processor 128 kB of RAM and ROM cartridge port.
    1985 On January 4th at CES, Atari introduces the Atari 130XE, 130ST, 260ST, 520ST, 65XE, 65XEM, and 65XEP computers.
    1985 The GNU manifesto is published by Dr. Dobb's Journal
    1985 Software Arts assets are sold to Lotus. Software Arts is most well known for its VisiCalc program.
    1985 The Amiga aka A1000 is introduced..
    1985 PNY Technologies is founded.
    1985 Dell releases its first computer, the "Turbo PC."
    1985 Titus Interactive is founded.
    1985 Microtek introduces the world's first 300-dpi black-and-white sheetfed scanner.
    1985 Quantum Computer Services is founded, this company later becomes AOL.
    1985 Microsoft and IBM begin collaboration on the next-generation operating system (OS/2).
    1985 The computer company Gateway 2000 is founded in Siox City, Iowa on September 5, 1985.
    1985 CAT1 wiring is introduced.
    1985 Intel introduces the 80386 in October.
    1985 Paul Brainard of Aldus Corporation introduces Pagemaker for the Macintosh, a program that lets users mix type and graphics on the same page. The combination of this software and the new Apple LaserWriter laser printer helps create the desktop publishing field.
    1985 The Mach Project begins at the Carnegie Mellon University.
    1985 IBM develops NetBEUI.
    1985 Microsoft Windows 1.0 is introduced in November, 1985 and is initially sold for $100.00.
    1985 The Nintendo Entertainment System makes its debut.
    1985 ATI is founded.
    1985 Boca is established.
    1985 Corel is founded.
    1985 Gravis is founded.

    Tell me you know what is going to happen in 10 years...
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    For sure I know!
    CAN bus, Ethernet, and NMEA 2000 are still the standards in the marine bus- industry, that is what we see in ten years.
    That is a pretty safe bet, because it is a time consuming and expensive task to install a new industrial standard worldwide. I.e. NMEA 2000 did not completely replace NMEA 183 until today! After almost ten years!

    Regards
    Richard
     
  7. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Richard,
    Tell me what don't you like about last setup?
     
  8. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Do´nt understand the question mate.
    Richard
     
  9. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Originally Posted by apex1

    The first two pictures below show two examples of a good console layout, the left one is the better due to the chart table in the right position (lower left corner of the pic.. the 3rd is acceptable, the last one is not.

    What is wrong with last one, I kind of like it, looks a little cramp.
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, the flat surface in front of the instruments is useless, the cup holder in front of the E panel is not the best place. The monitors are out of direct sightline (good) but here they are a bit too much out of sight, should face inwards a bit.
    Passenger seating is too close to helm position (this is a 45m Format not a 60´ blue water sailer where you want your wife close to you), and do´nt face forward.
    Yes a bit cramp, I would prefer it a bit opener, you usually walk around on longer watches if possible.
    But the helm seat is a good one (Recaro i guess).
    All four are more or less good, I should´nt have used the term acceptable. Hakvoort is a premium Yard, they do´nt do crap.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  11. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    Good eyesight Richard. I missed cup holders. Maybe good to hold spare breakers... It is a little cramp in spite of being pretty big. Would you say chair is well position with steering wheel at least for foot steering. I never steered a ship sitting down.

    I am thinking of putting monitors on top of windows. I have height in my bridge. These monitor would be used for video of surroundings, news, and miscellaneous stuff. What do you think of this idea?

    I am also thinking of placing lounge area under windows and putting steering console toward one side. I have outside upstairs bridge that would be getting most of the use, so inside bridge is for bad weather. What do you think of this idea. I am trying to do some drawings.
     
  12. marshmat
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    marshmat Senior Member

    Monitors above the windows- I suppose it could work. Looking up is not comfortable for very long, so anything up there would have to be for things you aren't constantly checking- CCTV camera feeds from the side decks, that sort of thing. It would look way cool, for sure.

    LCD monitors should really be within 20, maybe 30 degrees of normal to the line of sight. A large, flat array (like the last picture in post #9) looks cool, but the outermost screens are at too big an angle to the helm to be useful. If one person will be conning the boat, that one person should be able to view all necessary information just by turning their head, without leaving the helm. Monitor banks would thus take the form of semicircular arcs, centred on the helm chair.

    Also on this note, control panels for frequently accessed functions should be within arm's reach from the helm. Anything more than 80 cm from the centre of the helmsman's torso is too far away to use without moving around. As I've mentioned before, I'm a small-boat guy and don't have most of these gadgets. If I were setting up a big-boat bridge, I'd want (at a minimum) the engine controls, autopilot control, radar keyboard and the keypad of the VHF within arm's reach.

    As anyone with a laptop computer will testify, a comfortable position for controls and keyboards is somewhat too close for a display screen, especially if you'll be just glancing at the display before looking back outside. A two-tier setup, with controls at about 60-80 cm from the operator and displays in a large arc somewhat farther back, is often a comfortable way of setting things up.

    Pulling key controls close enough to the helm to be easily reachable will almost certainly result in a control station that more closely resembles a jet aircraft than a ship. If you want the big open bridge look, some sacrifices in ergonomics for the one-person case must be made.

    If you will always have multiple crew on the bridge, of course, things can be different. In this case it may make a lot of sense to spread things out among two or three stations.
     
  13. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, it is nesseccary to have some sort of vast overview if one has to command a ship, I guess.
    The chair is in the right position (always just a bad compromise). Today the AP does the job and steering is usually done by hand in tight quarters only (even then mostly with a tiller). And I do it like you, if handsteering is choosen I do it standing at the wheel.
    The monitors overhead is a nono, they produce senseless pictures (too small), disturb the eye (fatigue) and are inconvenient to read (high angle). Security monitors as Matt mentioned could be placed overhead but not within 1,2 meter from centerline of the wheel (that means you cannot read them anyway). The overhead panel is good for searchlight control, windvane, and the displays of your backup systems (if low dimming is possible) and all the fancy little chistmas gimmick gifts, bridge clock, baro, inclinometer etc. (all in brass naturally). Never allow a TV connected monitor at the helm, never! (except it is only you and your female admiral doing the job, of course).
    If there is no Palm tree at the foredeck (where some silly people hang fabrics at), I prefer a centered steering position and would not give it up for any sort of convenience. But of course that is just a very personal preference, and I am talking about passagemaking (as in all of my statements) only, not weekend sailing.
    That is the industries luck, that 99% of theyr customers do´nt know that 99% of the boats a far below a sensible standard of ergonomics.
    The pictures 1 and 2 show pretty much what I prefer (pic.1 is about ten years old now, the PC monitor is a flatscreen now), a single purpose bridge. A no nonsense, no food no beverage at the helm, this is a workstation, bridge. And this is the boat from the outside:............the right one..
     

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  14. mydauphin
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    mydauphin Senior Member

    "Security monitors as Matt mentioned could be placed overhead but not within 1,2 meter from centerline of the wheel (that means you cannot read them anyway)." Why?

    What do you all think of these three...
     

    Attached Files:


  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    To be out of the direct sight line at night, mydauphin. And the pictures you posted show all pretty much reflections especially the last two (I guess a fast passenger CAT bridge?). Who will handle the VHF radio in the first pic. ? What does the second show? A wheelstation in the basement?

    Regards
    Richard
     
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