Brewer aluminum design?

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by qwerty, Aug 28, 2006.

  1. Gilbert
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    Gilbert Senior Member

    I think the reference to hoisting the c'board in rough weather is for lying ahull. With the boat scooting sideways it leaves a marvelous slick surface that is remarkably flat compared to the surrounding sea. I would in fact say that you have to see it to believe it. The downside of course is the leeway you make.
    As to laying to the sea anchor, use what works best, either up or down.
     
  2. qwerty
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    qwerty Junior Member

    Gilbert,
    Of course you must be right about it being while lying ahull. I've being wondering if drifting would be more comfortable with my full keel or with no keel at all. Lying ahull is misery in my boat and maybe would be more pleasant in a boat with the board lifted.

    I have read about the slicks which the Pardeys maintain are created when hove to or lying to a sea anchor on a bridle that points them about 50 degrees off the wind. I have also read others who say they are "optical illusions". But what do I know. If you say seeing is believing, I'll hold my tongue and maybe some day even believe it :).


    Vega,
    If I saw the Generic 35 sail into a harbour, I would think it was a real cruiser's boat, a craft and skipper ready to go places.

    If I saw the Hermine 36 sail into a harbour, I would think there goes a skipper who probably pays a mechanic to change his engine oil :).

    I think the Generic is handsome. Looks like a man's boat.

    But kidding aside, the Hermine is a nice boat, and thanks for the link to Francois Lucas's site. He has drawn some lovely designs. I had wondered why there was limited infomation about the Hermines on the Coqalo site, but I notice on the Lucas site that they just took on the design this year. They probably need more time.

    It would be interesting to compare the price quote of a one-off builder to Coqalo. Maybe I should post a question about it in a thread that maybe more builders would see, or maybe lazyjack wants to jump in, but you'd think that a yard building copies of a particular boat would get very good at it, and there would be bulk savings on mechanical bits. I wonder if a builder makes two copies of any boat how much quicker and cheaper he can make the second.

    Though is could be that welding is welding and a small yard buys nothing until your signature is on a piece of paper, so there would be little savings.

    I will go search for that thread about twin keels and will ask Coqalu for information about stability. And don't worry, there is little chance I will know how to interpret the data. But reading Jimmy Cornell's take on stability, I don't feel too bad being ignorant about the figures.
    cheers
     
  3. Gilbert
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    Gilbert Senior Member

    It has been very interesting for me to follow this thread, most likely because I believe the mid thirties is a very good size to focus on for serious cruising. And I just want to mention that a few years ago I was aboard a Hans Christian 34 and the interior arrangement impressed me a great deal for a boat of that size. Of course the real test is living with it for an extended time as opposed to my quickie first impression. But it might be worth a look. It was more plush than I would require. I am afraid I am into austerity, at least compared to many.
     
  4. qwerty
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    qwerty Junior Member

    Gilbert,
    Mid-thirties, about 16-15k#, is right for me, a bit more room, and the increase in the costs from berthing to sails is regretable but manageable. When you get into boats over 40', while wonderfully big and comfortable, costs go up astronomically.

    The Hans Christians are lovely, heavy, full-volumed boats. I've never sailed on one, but spent lots of time dreaming over plans when I was a kid (I had drawings of them all). I don't require luxury either, not does my first mate, but we would like a bit more elbow room for living and having fun.
     
  5. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Hello there,

    About the Hans Christian, I love the boats, but they are heavy and expensive boats.

    I assume you are talking of passagemakers. About size, if you chose a small boat, like the Hans Christian (it is not an aluminium boat) it would have to be heavier to have the same seaworthiness of a lighter and bigger boat. In the end, for the same seaworthiness, both boats will have about the same displacement.

    Costs have a lot to do with displacement, so in the end you can have two boats with similar seaworthiness, costing the same. Probably the smallest will have a more comfortable motion (even if not by much, because size is also important in what regards motion comfort). The biggest will have a lot more interior and exterior space, and it will be a much faster boat, motoring and sailing, especially in medium and week winds.

    About maintenance and Marina prices, they would not be very different, at least here in Europe.

    I have a 36ft (11m) and here most marinas have the same price between 10 and 12m (33 to 40ft).

    Between those two options I would chose the light 40ft to the heavy 34ft (assuming that both were well-designed and seaworthy boats).

    To illustrate what I mean I will post two photos of these two kinds of boats, by the same designer, a very good one in what concerns aluminium boats. One is a seaworthy centerboard (this one is not like the OVNIS in what concerns inverted stability) and a long keeled smaller boat.

    http://hoorn.digicity.nl/Dick_Zaal_Yacht_Design-1748108095zdid.html

    http://www.koopmanskasko.nl/DaviWB/Pagina5.html

    http://hoorn.digicity.nl/Dick_Zaal_Yacht_Design-1748108095zdid.html

    Click at designs and then Aluminium, to see the drawings of both boats.

    http://www.koopmanskasko.nl/DaviWB/Pagina10.html


    Cheers
     

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  6. qwerty
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    qwerty Junior Member

    Where I am they use the metric system, but they charge by the foot in marinas, and five feet can make considerable difference. But I certainly agree that an 8,000kg boat is not going to cost exceptionally more if it is 40' rather than 36'. I am told that is more true with aluminum than it is with fibreglass. But others would know far more about it than I would.

    Found thread you mentioned, or one of them, and it made it pretty clear that if there is a disadvantage to sailing a twin keeler it is not clearly understood or easy to clearly explain :) at least to me. Elsewhere, I did find one disadvantage -- if you ground a twin keeler on rocks it is not so easy to heel her to get off. If that's the worst people can come up with, I don't see a problem.
     
  7. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Qwerty, finally my Internet is working properly again. I am going to post the Mercator 40 sail test.
     

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  8. qwerty
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    qwerty Junior Member

    Vega,
    Lovely boat. The photos don't seem to follow the layout drawing in the article, more similar to the layouts you posted back in post #24. No worries, lovely still.

    Too much boat for me, but fun to look at and read about. It's a pretty positive review.

    Notice that Coqalu has added a few more boats, including a couple more Hermines and a the Pollen 10.10 which is a fun design with an incredible interior. Download the pdf files to see it. Not for me, but it's rather ingenious. Maybe the engine heats your water!! Like the double furling headsails, though not sure about the double tiller.

    They finally got back to me (I write in English, they in French, which seems fair) about the Generic 35. About 51,000 Euros for bare hull and deck for the twin keel (not sure I understand why twin keel is slightly more expensive than centreboard, thought it would be the other way around), but they didn't answer my questions about the AVS, RM curve or STIX. Maybe they don't know, so I wrote the designer to ask. It would be fun to live in France for a year (??) and work on a boat while I practice my French.

    I think you should get yourself one of those Mercator 40s and cruise over and take me and the missus for a daysail.

    cheers
     
  9. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    The Mercator and other aluminium boats are just back-up plans, if the one that I am designing proves to be out of my budget.

    I am designing a new interior and some minor alterations (bigger deck saloon, different stern, and a little bit more freeboard) and the designer of the original boat has agreed in doing the hull alterations that are needed to accommodate a slightly heavier boat.

    I still have to do a lot of work, before I am in condition to ask for prices to shipyards, but looking at the site of the shipyard that was recommended as the one with best prices, I have found what is probably another option for you.:p

    I knew that boat already (it was once posted by Milan) but I had forgotten about it. It is a very nice boat, kind of boat that I am designing, but smaller.

    Holland is the other country that has first rate aluminium construction. And at least there almost everybody speaks English. Lots of members of this forum are Dutch. Perhaps they can give you some help:)

    http://vanbenthem-jachtbouw.com/

    http://www.lady-a.nl/De Boot/Technische gegevens.html

    http://www.lady-a.nl/De Boot/Bouw: Fotoverslag deel 1.html

    http://www.lady-a.nl/De Boot/Bouw: Fotoverslag deel 2.html

    http://www.lady-a.nl/De Boot/Bouw: Fotoverslag deel 4..html

    http://s.mc1.nl/archive.asp?202B453D5E544B502D454E443D322B2F5D41#artikel2

    http://s.mc1.nl/archive.asp?202B453D5E544B502D454E4429312A4F4541#artikel1

    http://www.lady-a.nl/home

    Cheers
     

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  10. Chuck Bates
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Chuck Bates Junior Member

    Qwerty,

    I see you're from Vancouver Island. There is a metal boat builder in Sidney that you may want to look at - Christensen Yachts.

    Website: http://www.christensenyachts.ca/
     
  11. qwerty
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    qwerty Junior Member

    Thanks Chuck, I've bookmarked their site.
     
  12. qwerty
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    qwerty Junior Member

    Vega,
    I am not as adventurous as you (nor do I have the design knowlege -- I would surely overbuild), but hope everything goes well.

    My wife has looked at the boats you've suggested, but she hasn't seen anything she likes more than Van de Stadt's Forna 37, exterior or interior. (Lady A reminds me of the Forna.) And I find myself liking it more and more, and have made some queries about it. Van de Stadt says it includes plans for a permanent aluminum dodger which is a priority with me.

    First thing I would do is get rid of the teak decks (unnecessary expense, weight and maintenance) and the steering wheel (waste of space). Van de Stadt also says they have a drawing of the fittings necessary for installing a tiller.

    It has a fold down swimming platform, but CapeHorn says their vane could be installed offset from the platform so I could have my cake and eat it, too. I would likely follow their advice and install a tiller no more than 40cm long, since the only time it would used is in marinas and anchorages. Not sure what I will do with all that extra room in the cockpit. Maybe put in a tennis court :)

    http://www.stadtdesign.com/images/products/459-7-0.jpg

    Guess I should send for some study plans.
     
  13. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    No my friend, you get it wrong, you are a lot more adventurous than I am.:p

    I will not try to build the boat (no particular skills in that area). About modifying the interior, no problems there. I am an Architect, and have some experience as a cruising sailor, so I know what I want. About the hull modifications, they are slight and they will be made by the naval architect that has designed the original boat. No risks involved.

    About the Forna 37, it is a good boat, made by a good designing team, but it is not the same kind of boat as Lady A.

    The Forma is a beamier boat. The inside and the outside of the boat are a lot more like the typical large production fiberglass 36/37ft sailboats. This means that it is not properly designed as a voyage boat.

    http://www.challengershare.com/boats/bavaria36/spec.htm

    I guess that you are going to miss the Vancouver when beating to windward with some sea. The Forna will be a lot more uncomfortable in that situation (and a lot faster downwind).

    The Lady A is lighter, and that permits her to have a smaller rig, and have a bulb deep down that can go up and permits you to go inshore, for protection against heavy winds, and also enter rivers and explore places out of reach of the fixed keel. Lady A will have a better performance upwind and a more conformable motion.

    The Design (pilot house) of the Lady A would permit you to have an interior with a chart table in a position that allows you to sail the boat from the interior and also allows a higher ceiling and an airier and lighter interior.

    Of course, the overall interior space will be smaller. And even if the Lady A looks to be a stiffer boat, the superior displacement of the Forna will give her a superior RM positive curve, but I believe that probably the Lady A will have less inverted stability, and probably a better AVS.

    So, I don’t know what boat fits you better (I know already the one that fits better to your wife:p ), but they are certainly very different boats;) .
     
  14. qwerty
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    qwerty Junior Member

    Vega,
    Yes, I know I was being flippant saying Lady A was the same. Forna of course is beamier and indeed more like a production boat. I have spent a lot of time comparing the Forna and Hermine 36, how the Hermine carries her beam further aft, and frankly I don't really understand the differences it would make to its motion at sea.

    But I will study Lady A again with a new outlook :) And I have to admit the thought of a deckhouse in an October rain is indeed attractive.

    Needless to say, upwind or down, all three would be much faster than my Vancouver.

    Hey, I posted some numbers in the "Boat design" folder. You can guess what boat it is if you want, but go have a look. You are welcome to interpret to you heart's content.

    But, oh, isn't Forna with a dodger the most beautiful thing you have ever seen. (I've tried to post a photo, but don't know if it will work).

    cheers
     

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  15. Vega
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    Vega Senior Member

    Hum, that’s not what I mean. The Vancouver 27 is a very good boat going close to the wind against 2 meter waves and can do it without slamming and with a relatively comfortable motion.

    I have been sailing the weekend and I was lucky. Today, coming back from Peniche, I found almost flat seas and winds between 16 and 25k (apparent wind at 60º). Perfect conditions for my boat and that have put a grin in my face. The average speed was about 7,5K.

    But I also know that when going close to the wind, against 2/3 meters waves in strong winds, my boat is a *****. It is very uncomfortable and you have to be at the wheel all the time, if you want to prevent the worst of the slamming.

    I suspect that the Forna will also be fast in flat seas, but will not be a lot better, in troubled seas.

    By the way, I think that the photo that you have posted (nice boat) is from a steel boat (and that one would be more comfortable). I say this, because if you compare the water line on the pictures (designs) of the Forna (that you have previously posted) and the waterline on the photo, you are going to see that there is a big difference (look at the rudder). The steel boat will have a bigger forefoot and that and the superior displacement will give it a more comfortable motion.

    For the same displacement, a less beamy boat will be more comfortable, and as the price has a lot to do with displacement, you can have a slighter bigger boat (if narrow) by the same cost of the Forna 37.

    Take another look at the “Greyhound MKII” and to the “Coronet 41”. Both boats have been recently subjected to interior and exterior modifications, towards cruising. E-mail Dick Zaal, ask him about those alterations and you will see that he is, not only a great Architect but also a very helpful kind of guy (when he is not sailing, which he does most of the time). As the two boats are being finished, he can give you prices for both, complete boats, or price of the projects.

    These are the kind of boats that I am talking about, narrow and with a dog-house (like the Lady A).

    http://www.dickzaalyachtdesign.nl/


    About the numbers you have posted in the “Boat design folder”, I would like to have a look, but I don’t know what you are talking about. Give me some help here.:(

    Cheers
     
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