Brewer aluminum design?

qwerty:

After being boatless for six years, a month ago I purchased a five-year-old 36' Brewer cutter built in steel. So far, her sailing abilities have exceeded my expectations for a smallish steel sailboat.

My wife and I purchased the boat with an eye to messing around between Alaska and Puget Sound during our retirement, which is a long time away. Meanwhile, we are a family of four weekend warriors on the water. Our kids are 14 and 10.

Layout: Our layout is similar to http://www.stadtdesign.com/images/products/459-7-0.jpg except we only have a quarterberth in back, and the starboard settee has been shortened so the nav station can be moved foward (serving double duty for its user to participate with discussions, dining, and such in the saloon) and thus the head has been lengthened allowing more usable room. I'm 6'1" and shower standing up. The starboard settee is not long enough to act as berth for an adult or middle-age child. But the boat was really built for a cruising couple, and our oldest leaves home in a short four years, so it's a compromise that is workable for us for now. The older boy gets the quarterberth and the younger one takes the saloon berth. We drop the table, which slids up and down the keel-stepped mast. We don't have the drop the table, but my wife is fond of spoiling our kids.

Other differences: the "closet" and sink area foward of the saloon is missing in our boat, but the closet is found between the galley and the quarterberh.

Also, the gallery is a full "U" shape, as also is saloon sitting. Both likely are permited by moving the closet to the rear. The companion way is slightly off center, stealing room from the head and giving it to the quarterberth and more importantly to the galley.

The head has a sizeable port on starboard inline with other ports. The quarterberth has a port opening to the cockpit.

Radius chines: They are underwater. People see the top of the boat. I have YET to be moving on my boat in a marina where somebody didn't say, "Good looking boat" or something similar. EVERY time it happens (swelling with pride here).

I have a longish fin, 6'1" deep, and a huge skep with the prop in the skeg. I think this arrangement has much to recommend it in terms helping to protect not just the rudder but more importantly the prop. Sure the protection to the prop ain't perfect but it helps. Backing up, OTOH, is another matter. In fact, it's a nightmare. I do backwards with great trepidation. It's the weak point of this boat, no hiding that fact.

99 gallons of fuel; 93 gallons of water; 15 gallons of kerosene for heat; all under the sole leaving lots of storage in the boat.

Ted Brewer is retired. No sure how much help you will get from him at this point. Call and ask before you purchase plans. My boat was built in the great seafairing state of Utah, where the builder/owner has a steel fabrication business. He built the boat for himself--I love it when people say, "This is a STEEL boat?"--and this for a metal boat with no fairing. He liked sailing so much, and with a family of six kids, he is now building a D. Dix 44'.

There is a large discount for steel boats in the US. Don't know about Canada. US sailors don't like steel boats because they have a reputation for poor sailing and high maintenance, both of which are true and false depending on the designer, builder, and owner. If you shop, you can find a steal in steel. My boat was on the market for two years, which says something about my purchase price. There is a 37' steel listed in 48 Degrees North that just finished long cruise all the way around. It's fully outfitted. Engine has some hours on it, about 8,000. Other than that, I was making plans to go it see in Canada. It has two separated quarterberths. Full keel. You might want to check it out. It has been for sale I think for over six months and winter is knocking. Owner was asking $79,500 US. It has everything from watermaker to windvane, communication, dinghy, etc. http://www.48north.com/classads/boats3.htm Folkes did the hull; owner did unique but very functional interior.

I personally would have taken a good buy in aluminum, but never found one in the PNW. I have never sailed a heavy displacement boat until I test sailed this one. I'll never go back. The motion is wonderful. My wife's seasickness is definitely more under control, a nice development that completely blindsided us. (L/D ratio just under 300; B/D ratio = .33 Prior 33' boat was medium displacement with 6' keel but B/D = .44, big difference.)

Bought my first boat to go fast; this one to go far. But this one ain't no dog, for sure. SA/D over 16, and that's without the staysail.

All FWIW.

(BTY, I love the boat, in case you missed it.)

(And another BTY: since purchasing the boat and hanging out with yachties I have met one sailor whose wonderful trip to Alaska was cut short on the return leg by a log into the fiberglass hull, and another who just missed a sizeable log and is now actively looking for a steel sailboat. Metal has its foibles, but on balance I think metal is good for PNW sailing--but I'm preaching to the choir aint' I?)

 

Glad you love your boat. Sounds like a beauty. Your recommendations are sound, but I've just got it in my head that once before I die I am going to do it the way I want. We've changed our minds about style and materials a few times, but I think we are beginning to cross some T's and narrow our wish list. Moderate-displacement, fast aluminum cruiser with a simple rig and a hull that will never need paint -- ever

 

Hello,

I have been looking at aluminium boats for some time now ( someday I want to have one)

For relatively small and not so expensive boats, one option is the small French semi-custom boats, made by small yards. They will cost less than a completely custom boat.

I am not talking only of "Deriveurs", but also of twin keels or fin keel boats.

I will post some links of some French semi-custom boats. Take a look:

http://www.allures-yachting.com/index3.htm
http://www.alliage-yachts.com/
http://www.coqalu.com/
http://www.alubat.com/
http://www.webzagone.fr/mercator/chantier.html

Best regards

 

Vega, your name is now a dirty word around our house. I had a choice: clip some bushes or spend a whole lot of time looking at boat designs. What could I do? I blamed you.

Had found a couple of the links on my own, but a couple were new. Hadn't seen www.coqalu.com before, but found it interesting. It even had some boats in my size range (French sailors do seem to have money to spend). The Generic 35 by Luc Bouvet is very intriguing with really novel ideas. I even managed to get through the press reviews with what little French I have from high school (and online translators

But I'm wondering. So many of the French aluminum designs (even passage makers) that I am seeing have ice cream scoops out of the stern for swimming and boarding dinghies. And they have overhead platforms for radar/solar panels/hanging dinghies. Do the French use vanes or electrical autopilots? Or is there something new and reliable that I'm missing?

cheers

 

Many use electrical pilots. Even racing boats in the Vendeé Globe (alone around the world without stopping) use electrical pilots. You can see that all those boats have solar panels and wind generators.

About those links, the Mercator and the Coqalu are probably the most interesting for you.

They deliver the boat completely finished or in any phase of the building stages.

I particularly like the Mercator. French sailing magazines have said very well of that boat (sailing performance) and the interiors are very good.

The designer is working in a new version that looks even better.

This one has an AVS of 140º, a twin keel that will permit you to dry out the boat almost anywhere for maintenance, and it is a fast boat for its type. A very interesting boat.

It will cost, ready to sail away, 270 000 euros and only the hull and deck, 76 500 euros.

I have more information on this one (and some of the others), if you are interested.

(and if you are really interested in one of those, send me a message, I can help with the translation and I can email you some boat tests)

Cheers

 

Vega,

Great pix, lovely boat. They are all of the Mercator, right? Might be a little out of my price range, but would love to see what you have. Have a lot to learn. No worries about the French translation. My wife's French is much better than mine, and she enjoys proving that to me . The arguments about nautical expressions are a lot of fun. I'll message you my email address.

I posted a similar question about vanes on a mailing list that I belong to. Someone sent me a link to http://www.capehorn.com -- apparently well-proven, very clean look and some installations are offset to permit stern ice cream scoops. They even set up some so the windvane tower is far enough forward to permit dinghy davits. And they offer an aluminum mounting tube for welding to an aluminum hull. I certainly like the look more than my Monitor, but will have to study it a bit more to see if it's as reliable.

cheers and thanks for the help

 

thanks for the good links mate!!

 

that price, for hull decks, is very competitive
In 1990 I built 40 footer for a clent, 80k, allowed 1800 hrs

 

Yes, all from the same boat, a 40ft Mercator. About more information, I have some sketches of the project for the new Mercator 40.1. Price will be the same, and the boat looks better, with lots of interior options.

I have also a PDF from a recent test published on a French sailing magazine and a video, but my internet link has some problem and is running too slow. I will post those when I can.

About the price, the one that I have posted is the one that was published in that test. The shipyard has sent me more agreeable numbers and the boat has a impressive list of the standard equipment, including big water and fuel tanks. The price is 245 000 euros and include all taxes (you would have to take from that price the VAT that you will not pay, if the boat is for export - 19%?), but without electronics.

Of course, if it is out of budget, you still have the new Mercator 10.5m.

Even if I like it less than the 40.1,( it is from another designer) It looks to be a strong boat, and the owner of this shipyard makes from seaworthiness one of his banners. Perhaps you should talk to them and get more information on that one.

http://www.webzagone.fr/mercator/news.html#

 

Take also a look at the "Manatea":

http://www.enthousiaste.com/mono_haut/Alu/index.htm

http://pros.orange.fr/afepmarine/index2.htm

http://www.boats-diffusion.com/fr/c...MANATEA 350 DI/code_langue/fr/pabknum/FJ21373

 

Vega,
The Manatea looks like a lovely boat to live on, lots of light, open space.

I think that I am a product of prejudice. There are many things about yachts that I look at and immediately think "this is flimsy, weak, won't stand up to passages and heavy weather". Perhaps my prejudices are without good reason or perhaps they were concerns that once had merit, but no longer do.

Two things about the Manatea trigger that response: big windows and a centreboard. It could be that the windows are made from spaceage plastics and well sealed and are not the deckhouse's weak link. It also could be that the centreboard is superstrong and able to handle anything the sea hands out. But I have a lifetime of prejudices that warn me otherwise (and I admit they are not from experience, but from reading and listening to the opinions of others).

Given we are at a site frequented by designers, I wonder if overcoming sailors' prejudices is one of the most difficult tasks a designer has in getting a radical boat plan accepted. Looking at typical "bluewater cruisers" in North America, they tend to meet different criteria than such boats in Europe. In North America, centreboards and big windows and, to some degree, ice cream scoops (which frankly make brilliant sense) are out -- they don't say "bluewater". Maybe just takes a bit of relearning... or perhaps some prejudices are sound. (I will tell you when I have remade my prejudices

There's a lot to like about the design, but I have to think that resale, always a possibility, would not be good in Canada.

 

Here, have some more:
(if you have some, please post them)


http://www.alutechmarine.com/fr/Cont/index.html

http://www.atlanticyachts.nl/

http://www.alumarine.nl/concordyachts.html

http://www.jet-alu.com/fr/concept.html

http://www.jfa-yachts.com/HTMLs/start_uk.htm

http://www.seilsamvirket.net/3_baat/Galleri_dekk_interior/index.html

http://www.dujardin-icofrance.com/

http://www.garcia-bateaux.com/

http://www.lansart.fr/index.html

http://alu-wind.it/

 

In a centreboard, when the weather is really bad, you pull your centerboard up (like in a cat), to improve boat’s seaworthiness. Normally the centerboard is neither heavy nor extra strong, nor it needs to be.

About the windows, you are right. They should be checked out thoroughly. But in these days, it is not difficult to have “very strong space age plastics” or very strong glass. Of course really big windows are always a problem (but this is not the case), and many times more important than that is the way they are fixed to the boat.

If it is not a very good and strong job, they can “pop” out, without breaking. This happened recently with a small hull window, in some boats from the Beneteau group.

In my opinion the relatively light centerboard boat can offer some advantages regarding seaworthiness; the real problem with light centerboard boats is that they have normally a lot of inverted stability. By other words, all is well provided that the boat is not capsized. If capsized, you would wish to be in any other boat.

Of course this is true for most centerboarders, but not for all.

Perhaps you can take a look at these threads:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9199&highlight=ovni

http://www.noonsite.com/aventura/FAQ2.html

and at this one, from post 241 to 243.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8727&page=17&highlight=passage maker

The truth is that there are around there a 1000 OVNIS and people who buy them are not the kind of guys that stay in the marina. They are used mainly as voyager boats and as passagemakers and I have never heard of one being capsized. They are regarded as very seaworthy boats.

But you want a small boat, and small boats are more easily capsized than bigger boats, so special care should be taken in what regards the AVS and the inverted stability.

About the Manatea, I don’t know its AVS or the inverted stability, but for its length it is a relatively heavy boat : Lightweight : 6200 kg; Charged weight : 8400 kg; Ballast : 2000 kg

That should give it a good RM curve on positive stability. About the negative stability and AVS I am not so sure (not to say that I think that it will not be a very good one).

Anyway, the boat is regarded by the French, including the press, as a “Bateau de Voyage”, and that means a Passagemaker.

Comparing this boat with the Vancouver 27 (I like it a lot), I would say that the Manatea would be a lot more difficult to capsize, but if capsized, your boat would right itself up a lot quicker.

 

Vega, again great links, particularly the one to Noonsite, and Jimmy Cornell's take on centreboards and his Ovni -- which I don't think are bad looking boats at all To each his own. I have been spending some time admiring the Generic 35. Sent your link to a friend. He wrote back and said: "Okay, pretty clever design, but not so nice to look at, is she?"

Certainly agree that the Vancouver would be easy to capsize. I've never rolled her, but I have been knocked (almost) flat -- it becomes more of a knockdown the more often I tell the story . My hope is that she will right herself easily... and soon.

Not really sure what you mean about lifting the keel in heavy weather, unless lying ahull or to a drogue or sea anchor. I wouldn't be able to hold my line when hove to. I have a Jordan series drogue (which I admit I've never used), but would I lift my centreboard if lying to a drogue.

Don't know anything about twin keels. It makes sense to me (not a scientific or mathematical calculation, but a gut feeling) that they would be stable, though whether they track truer or are more sea kindly, faster, slower, I have no idea. And it also is a nagging worry, though I'm sure not true, that twin keels would work against each other when capsized and keep you that way! But certainly do like the idea of being able to dry out on a beach to touch up the bottom paint or to replace a seacock (and it's interesting, though a bit boggling that Jimmy Cornell says he doesn't use plastic seacocks but "welded alu pipes which I think are probably better, especially in ice." Does he mean just pipes that are always open?!!)

I've done some googling of saildrives, but not found much. They are rare things in my neighbourhood, but not sure of the reason -- is the reason really that in order to do any gearbox work you have to pull the boat? Maybe that's why the Generic has a twin keel, so you can do some gearbox work on the beach!

Don't know the difference between framing vs thick aluminum sheets, though it seems it would be easier to insulate with frame supports -- and that's something I think I'd want to do in my cooler home waters. Also have some concerns about the tiller -- in my opinion, wheels are an abomination, a total waste of space in boats under 18,000#, but the tiller does look a bit delicate and the cockpit seems a bit awkward. I've written Coqala for information, English or French. Hope they get back to me.

cheers

 

Qwerty,
I have not much time right now, so I can not chat about boats; but why don't you ask information about the Hermine 36 as well? They also make that one.

I agree with your friend. The Generic 35 has a fantastic interior, and it is a smart design...but regarding outside looks

I like the Hermine 36 a lot more (the looks).

You can also buy the plans directly from the designer. I will post a link.

About twin keels, you can use the search button. There is a recent thread about twin keels with a lot of information.

Twin keels work just fine. They give a little bit more drag than a single one, but if well designed, as they are in the Hermine, regarding cruising, the difference is meaningless.

Regarding safety they are not better or worse than fin keels. It all depends on the ballast and on the global stability curve of the boat.

Don't forget to ask the guys of Coqalu information about the stability of both boats (RM curve, STIX number and AVS). Even if you don't know how to interpret the data, they will give you very important information about the boat...and you can get help from this forum.

http://www.coqalu.com/category/a941ccc5fb1881325342f33dbb0e7aee/article/48/

http://www.fr-lucas.com/ref-cadre-gold.asp?reference=croisi%C3%A8re%C2%A0Hermine%2036'&id=21

Cheers