Bootstrap Cat

Hi WestVanHan,

I am well aware of some of the perils that await an amateur builder of boats, I know a guy that got divorced and had to sell the boat as part of the divorce agreement, he still refers to it as the 4 years of his life that his ex stole from him.

Boat building and duration of build are difficult things to calculate. I visited a 38 foot mono that was triple planked and the builder told me that the hull took him 2000 hours to plank. The frame set up was very basic and when i calculated the actual number of strips (which he got ready cut and planed), this guy must have been putting on one 3 meter X 50mm plank every 2 hours???? Lord knows how long the fairing took him. That said, every time I visited him he was either sitting in or on his half finished hull staring into the distance (probably "sailing"), or staring at drawings,I never saw the guy actually getting stuck in and working.
He ended up selling the incomplete boat for less than the cost of the epoxy.

The problem is all sailors in the tropics end up in boats that they adapt to meet that standard which we can consider as a comfortable tropical cruising boat. Boats that are clearly not designed to be tropical cruisers and yet are known as "good boats", they are not, they are lousy boats. Ask the owners;

Where do you shower? In the cockpit.
Where do you cook? In the cockpit.
Where do you sleep? In the cockpit under a mozzie net.
Where is everybody? In the cockpit.
What is the rest of the boat for? To hold the cockpit above the water?

And THE cockpit is some anal retentive 4 square meters behind a saloon nobody ever uses because it is too damn hot and stuffy.

As I said I cannot find a cat to meet these requirements and yet there must be a need for such a design, too many boats end up looking like floating squatter camps in an attempt to adapt to the conditions and become "comfortable".

 

That's good you have thought this stuff out-many don't. Like the guy about 10 years ago that built a larger cat,and then discovered it would cost $20k to move it to the water. So it sat in his backyard for 2 more years while he saved the money...

Anyways I live in an area where it doesn't get too hot,but have experienced heat in a boat and you are correct.
Could you make it so all of the salon windows can be opened,or perhaps put in large skylights that open up-without weakening the structure?
Or perhaps build a cat with no bridgedeck saloon?

I don't know how you'll escape the heat.

 

@WestVanHan,

"I don't know how you'll escape the heat."

Ice cold beer seems to work the best for me I think that the only way is to keep the sun off the boat and have open sides for airflow. And yet if you look at hot house designs you will find that they also have fixed panes at the same angle as those "good boats" by "good designers". Good if you're into orchids maybe.

I saw a cat with A frames and flying lateen main and foresail, the whole deck was covered with a canvass bimini, I couldn't get a close look at it but thought it was quite a good idea; that boat was sailing pretty close to the wind as well.

LOL 2 years of saving to get the boat out of the yard - thats rough.

 

@ Richard the wood of Woods Designs,

Thanks for your reply. Obviously I am looking for a V forward, but to flatten/ shallow it out 6 meters back into the hull to reduce freeboard, cost and hassle by using the hull skin as the floor in the cabins.(saw it on a sharpie and thought it was rather clever)

Planning for a max of 10 on board.

I am familiar with your Gypsy design, if I remember correctly there was a guy that lengthened a Gypsy by 6 feet or so by adding the footage to the middle of the boat. I think the reason for the adding of length was not only for the accommodations' sake, but also to take additional payload. Would such an alteration make that "flat aft" design more likely to pound?

Richard, Richard, Richard, you write, "If you think epoxy is expensive then you should go for a smaller boat, one you can afford".
What unspeakable things the epoxy high priests must have done to you in the confessional to make you such a believer.

Sure we are all fans of certain products but epoxy seems to have reached cult status amongst designers.

Why do I have to use epoxy? Why do I have to use ply? When I have perfectly good timber and adhesives available at a fraction of the cost of ply and epoxy.

Lateens are cheaper by way of going low tech on the rig. As mentioned to WestVanHam, I saw a cat with A-frame flying lateens and thought it was quite neat. Mast load is already on the hulls where it has to be transferred to anyway. The mast could be two 35 dollar poles and a 15m long coconut spar can be had for 80 bucks. Whilst some may laugh at coconut it has no rings or knots and a Janka ball hardness of 112,5 - 154,7 kgf/cm2 oak is apparently (70,3 - 84,4 kgf/cm2) and Douglas-fir (35,9 kgf/cm2...thanks wiki!), of course its the outer timber that gives the tree its strength and its flexibility. A spare spar can be kept lashed under the deck at that price.

I like some of your designs by the way, not your prices. Our currency is worth nothing nowadays, so what appears expensive to me probably isn't to the civilized world.

I am looking for a well found thin water tropical cruiser, that is designed for hot climates. That said, you know that the South African coast can get damn nasty to sail, and so cannot compromise on basic seaworthiness. I cannot help thinking that the way to go is to have a pop top on each cabin.

Either I am mad or a market must exist for cats such as this.

 

" I saw a cat with A-frame flying lateens and thought it was quite neat. Mast load is already on the hulls where it has to be transferred to anyway. The mast could be two 35 dollar poles and a 15m long coconut spar can be had for 80 bucks. Whilst some may laugh at coconut it has no rings or knots and a Janka ball hardness of 112,5 - 154,7 kgf/cm2 oak is apparently (70,3 - 84,4 kgf/cm2) and Douglas-fir (35,9 kgf/cm2...thanks wiki!), of course its the outer timber that gives the tree its strength and its flexibility. A spare spar can be kept lashed under the deck at that price."

Any links on this?

I'm short a mast right now and short money.

Every time I drive by a cell phone tower I think, "why not??"

The A frame is intersting as well.

 

The lengthened Gypsy still had Veed forward sections. Good to know you want a V forward on your boat. Flat sections aft are OK

No problem with standing on the floor, but you won't have a bilge, which often means a damp/wet floor. And its harder to hide cables and piping

What I meant by my epoxy comment was - if you think the materials cost is too high, build a smaller boat. Epoxy is relatively much cheaper than it was. I have sailed a few times in S Africa (Capetown to Rio for one). I didn't find it as hot as say C America in mid summer. What about during the day? Most people want to stay out of the sun.

A bimini is still just a tent. And no security when you leave the boat. Better a lockable cabin.

You "saw" the lateen cat, did you sail it? or see it sailing relative to other boats?

Check out David Lewis' original Rehu Moana rig

Do you want your boat to last 40 years or only 15-20. If the latter it will have no resale value after 5 years. Is it really cost effective to build a cheap big boat?

Check the Mira "Midnight Hour" transatlantic articles on my website

http://sailingcatamarans.com/index....stories/20-midnight-hour-a-mira-transatlantic

Rob built the boat to take back packing surfers to places they couldn't otherwise go. It was a successful venture

Richard Woods

 

I know that a less extreme length-to-beam ratio stabilized monohull, where the amas represent only about 10% or so of displacement, isn't what you were asking about but I've done some reading about them and they seem to have certain advantages.

One of which is light construction typical of cats seems not to be necessary for the central hull, one designer saying steel (not light) could work fine (the amas should be lighter, as weight far out to the sides, or far fore or aft, seems a way to get a less comfortable boat ... at least from what I've read). Another is shared with trimarans over catamarans: that accommodations are relatively low in the main hull and the angle between where a passenger's ears (where we perceive motion) are and the extreme beam is also low, so when the water gets rough the range of motions is smaller and less quick than if you were higher up on a bridge deck or in in-hull accommodations on a cat. It also stands to reason that the displacement of the amas being lower means they would sink deeper and recover more slowly than with a real tri, slowing down the motions of the boat and making it more comfortable still. I'm guessing noticeably firmer than a monohull but still with easy motions, not quick.

There may also be other cost, time to build, or accommodations advantages building a single longer 5-1 to 8-1 LBR main hull (rather than the extremes used/proposed for big RORO ships) and a pair of small amas rather then two shorter hulls for a cat.

 

Snowbirder,

I have no links unfortunately. The dhows use coconut spars on their lateens. The flying lateen boat I saw was sailing off northern Mozambique. Somebody said that they thought it belonged to a guy based in Kenya and used to have just a single lateen.

Have a look here for some ideas:
http://markdenny.shawwebspace.ca/asset/view/2104/preview_wp39.jpg/

http://hudsonrivericeyachting.blogspot.com/2014/02/we-have-ball-game.html

http://forum.slsailing.co/index.php?topic=3139.0

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/at...ct-bold-experiment-sn_04jun09_manguier_04.jpg

http://www.flyinglateen.com/the-new-rig.html

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/48457

 

Four of these came through work last year http://camd.org.au/pacific-vakas/
They looked pretty comfy, had a deckhouse(walk in) for shelter whilst voyaging & nicely styled awnings set up in port for shade.
These models had E glass hulls- not sure on the configuration but were like multi chine, I believe originals wereplanked, the connective deck was in Merbau/kwila? with balustrading port & stb & deckbox storage/seating, the hulls apparently had bunks although I didn't get a look at accomodations. There was drop down electric drives & a big solar array.
Jeff.

 

Waikikin,

The smaller of those craft were built (and designed, I believe) by salt house boat works in NZ. I did take a look at them.

Have electric motors that generate power whilst towing and then are used as motors for motoring. They changed the latest to sloops, the designer was talking about crab claws just cannot go to windward and the smaller 44 foot of these craft are used for inter island transportation.

It backs up what Richard woods is on about with traditional rigs just not cutting it when it comes to short tacks etc.

The accom on the boats is spartan but generous with big flexi space cabins, a galley and heads. The draft looks minimal too (see attatched pics)

http://pacificvoyagers.org/vaka-motu/

I wonder where i could get the hull design?

 

@ Waikikin,

Sorry here is the specs link

http://pacificvoyagers.org/vaka-motu/specifications/