Bolger diablo vs. Tolman skiff vs. Panga

PAR,

Yes, the sexy center console that scoots really well is the ticket. So is it the Digger or the Marissa? I'm guessing that you think the Bosons Mate is not a consideration. I don't see any info on weight.

Kim

 

Though I like Mark's Bosun's Mate, I think the Marissa from Graham at B&B, is the best choice. It's lighter, a more refined set of shapes and it's the sexy CC design that will grab the largest market portion, come time to sell it. She's also the boat selected as the best new design by WoodenBoat in their "2 Gallons per Hour" contest, which is another selling point. It's not a simple build, though a kit will help a great deal in this regard, but she'll likely sell quickly and the kids will just be dieing to drive it. Marissa can be powered with a 25 HP outboard, which is pretty cheap, but will take a 60 or possibly larger (ask Graham), which will make her get up and haul the mail. Tell Graham, PAR sent you.

 

PAR,

The Marissa looks like it has a gazillion parts compared to the Boson's Mate 23. I've not been able to find much info on builds for the Boson's Mate. Do you know of any blogs with pictures of builds?

I understand that the Marissa has a lot of special features and I suppose this is why it performs so well and has the sophisticated structure. However it doesn't look like you could build it without a kit.

The Bosons Mate on the other hand looks like the parts could be cut out with a jigsaw. I would like the kids to do this, seems like a kit might be too easy, and more expensive.

Where exactly are you in Florida? Do you have a shop?

Again, thanks for all your help, you've been great!


Kim

 

I'm in central Florida, about an hour above Orlando, depending on traffic.

Marissa has a unique building sequence that makes the build go together well. It can be built from plans and lots of jig saw work would be necessary, so idle hands will have plenty to do.

Both Mark and Graham are very approachable, give them a call and see how you feel about them.

I don't follow these designs well enough to know about blogs or sites, though the www.messing-about.com site will be the first place to look for the Marissa.

 

Kim; You are proposing a noble experiment, presumably for the purpose of inspiring some youthful participants. Good for you.

You asked for commentary, advice, recommendation, or whatever.

You are about to go down the primrose path of high expectation. The boats that you are contemplating are small market items. If built in wood, the market is even smaller by a negative order of magnitude. Initial investment to build one eighteen or twenty foot boat is not chopped liver. Hoping that a buyer might transfer engine, controls, etc. from an old boat to your new one is seriously optimistic. All but the most philanthropicly inclined buyers will run, not walk, away from a kid built twenty foot power boat boat purchase.

Explore the market place. See what kind of aquatic device has the most potential buyers. Select a boat type that sells in a price range that is reachable by the largest segment of the buying public, a boat that can fit the maximum number of family budgets. You will almost surely land on a boat type such as kayaks or canoes.

The build cost of a kayak is realistic. Build time is sufficiently short so that the kid builders have a higher probability of remaining interested until completion. Build space is much smaller thus less expensive for a start up operation. Wood construction is not as frequently derided when it is a paddle boat. Matter of fact they can be lighter than the tupperware competitors and certainly better looking. Moderate selling price tends to diminish the "kid built" stigma.

........................................................................................................................................

My rant.

All engineers are not myopic. There are many of us here on the forum who are extraordinarily inventive and admirably imaginative. A few of us are even educated in areas that do not involve gears and levers. In addition you will find, a few PHD level participants who are the antithesis of stodgy thinkers.

 

All,
Great news! I decided to approach boat buyers first and came out well. 3 have agreed to buy a Digger 17. Two have agreed to buy a PaLena 6.2, if I can get them to provide me with plans:

http://riversandtides.de/palena62.html

All are fine with rookies building since they can drop by and see the boat in progress. They have no problem since oversight is provided on every step. I've had a facility donated for a short period, so we will have to move fast. I'm considering building two at the same time so we have something to build while we wait for curing.

The PaLena, which is called Vicky on the low power thread right now, was of considerable interest to the supporters but I'm concerned that I may not be able to get the plans. Does anyone know of a boat that is similar enough in design to replace it with? I watched the video of it on the website, wow. Is there something unique about the hull?

Thanks again for all your help here, I'm definitely not done here, just wanted to thank those of you that provided supportive guidance, I could not have made it to here without y'all.

Kim

 

Good way to do it.

Much to difficult to guess what the market wants.

Much to expensive to advertise and convince the market that you build what it want.

Disastrous when you get it all wrong

 

PAR, Tolman Build Time Incorrect

Just a short clarification on the time it takes to build a Tolman Skiff, at least the model as discussed on this thread. I spent 412 actual documented build hours building a CC Tolman Wide Body 21'4" it has a five foot finish meaning from five feet it looks like a factory boat.
Granted I do not think this boat should be built by kids and would not really be a good choice for what this thread is all about. Just trying to clear up the post by Par estimating 900 hours to build an open Tolman Skiff. Now if you are talking a Tolman Jumbo with full cuddy and pilot house you might want to add 200 hours for a total of 1100.

 

I have run a charity project for many years teaching deaf kids to build boats www.wbba.co.za my advice get orders first and build then, keep it as small as possible.

 

Grady, you have several boats under your belt, which makes you a wee bit better then the novice, striking out on his first project. I've found a novice takes at least twice as long on any task, than even a modestly skilled builder. This said, maybe I was a bit high on the build time.

 

Par

Valid point, it also depends a lot on how good of a finish product the individual is looking for. I fully believe I saved 75-100 hours of fairing time getting a good finish just because I used Okoume rather than Fir marine ply. I did not spend more than 16 hours fairing the hull and never touched a long board because I have a compressor big enough to run an in line sander.

 

Finishing can eat up a lot of time. Even with skills, I'd be hard pressed to put only 16 hours into a new build's finish. A novice finishing is much worse, mostly because they don't understand what fair is, until the shinny stuff goes on. I know many a boat that was near completion, when it was rolled into the sunlight for the first time, just to get quickly rolled back in the shed, for a redo on the surfaces. All in all, I think 800-900 hours on a Tolman isn't that unreasonable. You and I could do one faster, but JimBob and his brother/uncle JoeLarry might take a bit longer.

 

The problem with Tolman skiffs is that they are ships. Best to first build a few skiffs before you tackle a ship

 

Par
I should clairify, the 16 hours was just fairing what I call filling the low spots then sand it out and fill a little more if need be. Most of where I had to fair were on the taped seams because I did not want to sand off too much of the tape where it hit existing fibergalss. sand off too much of the galss and ya loose the benifit. I had very few spots on the hull that needed fairing moststly up where the bow stem, sides and chine intersected. I was not including the time spent sanding down the hull through the different grits to get to a finish grit of 220. Probably had another 20 hours doing that.
the inside of the hull did not take much as I had pre-glassed the inside of the sides and sanded down to 220 while it was laying flat on my work bench. Most of the inside sanding was again on the fillet tape joint wher the deck meets the sides.

Michael,
I'm not sure if you know but there are three different models of Tomans
The Standard 18' to 20' not much of a ship here
The Wide Body 21' to 23'
The Jumbo 23' to 26'
Of course the big brother to the Tolman Jumbo is The Great Alaskan 25 to 28' now your talking a ship

Obviously the Stadard is the easiest quickest build. A lot of Tolmans according to the www.fishyfish.com web site have been built by first time boat builders. Having this website to ask other Toman builders question is invaluable and is in itself one of the reasons Tolmans can be built by a first timer. The guys including me are real good about answering questions and the search function is awsome.
One other big benifit to a first time Tolman builder is there are two kit suppliers in the US one on the East Coast (Salt Water Work Shop) and one on the West Coast (West Coast Boat Works) almost anyone can build a stitch and sew boat starting out with a kit.
Granted starting from scratch is a lot tougher if you have never lofted before or had much woodworking exspearience but by the time she is cut out and the parts and pieces are all glassed and scarfed togeather and ready to start building the hull if a person is mechanical at all he or she will do just fine on the rest of the build. Most of us know building a stitch and glue boat with thickened epoxy is not real hard as long as you read about the do's on dont's when it comes to epoxy rules between coats.
Just my 2 cents

 

Always wanted to build a Tolman 18. Then I saw the Bieker Skiff thought I wanted to build that but it's the world's most complicated, to build, skiff. Thought about the Sam Devlin Pelicano 18 (http://store.devlinboat.com/pelicano-18-center-console.aspx) as a compromise, not as industrial as a Tolman and not as complicate as the Bieker. So far their still on my to do list.
I'd be curious to hear PAR's input on a flat bottom skiff like his Dipper versus a v-bottom design.
Here are a couple of others under consideration.
http://www.nexusmarine.com/san_juan_dory.html
or http://www.nexusmarine.com/nexus_dory.html
The second boat is a little big at 21' but still light and easily powered.
Thanks