Bolger diablo vs. Tolman skiff vs. Panga

Discussion in 'Stability' started by Tinklespout, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. Tinklespout
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    Tinklespout Junior Member

    Hi,

    I have been SO impressed with the knowledge on this forum. thanks in advance for your help. i want to start a program for underprivileged kids and want to pick the best boat for these local waters so that we can sell them easily. Buyers will have questions so I want to have good honest answers. I believe that this info will also help in the build.

    I'm having a hard time getting info that is not jaded by boat ownership. I'm probably preaching to the choir here though.

    Which of these boats would ride better in chop and be safer should Rough seas be encountered. I'm looking at them for economy, I know there are better designs but I need to be able to afford to run it. I'm planning to build a boat in the 23 foot range.

    Thanks,
    Kim
     
  2. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    I don't understand.

    Are underprivileged kids building these boats ?

    All of the boats quoted are great boats. Even great boats are hard to sell.

    The Bolger is a simple skiff, well suited to home building ..the other two are much more labour intensive, powerful and expensive.

    In life...everyone needs a good skiff. I would build the Bolger for easy sale.

    Another logical, simple,, easy to build skiff is Boatdesign net contributor PAR Clamdigger design. Cheap ,simple, low power and since we know everyone need a good skiff... it will be easy to sell
     
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  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The three boats you've selected are fairly divergent in design approach.

    The Panga is a relatively narrow 25' warped bottom of working boat heritage. It doesn't have the elbow room of a typical 25' boat, but is accommodating and capable in skilled hands. She requires a 75 to 150 HP outboard, which is a significant investment in itself. With this amount of power you'll get her to run in the low 30 to low 40 MPH range. Once in the mid 30's, she start to display the habits of all warped bottoms and the mid 40's should be the limit of her speeds, if any reasonable level of comfort is expected. She's not a difficult build, but certainly not as easy as other designs. Expect a minimum of 400 hours in this build.

    The Tolman skiff is a well known, rough water boat, again from working boat lines. They range in length to some degree, but 22' - 25' seems the average. It's a hearty build, which produces a tough, reasonably light boat. I personally dislike the sheer and a few other features of the boat, but it has several variants, one of which I'm sure you'll enjoy. Expect at least 700 hours for the build and again significant engine HP requirements.

    The Bolger Diablo is a considerably smaller craft with half as much displacement at 15'. It's unique hull shape makes it a much easier build than the other two choices. Again I have issue with the shapes employed, though I do understand why Bolger employed them, I'd still want to flare the topsides a bit. This boat doesn't require a huge investment in an engine. A 10 HP outboard will get it on plane, but a 15 or better yet a 20 HP will make her get up and stay there. Expect high 20 to low 30 MPH range with a 20 HP outboard. The build is simple compared to the others, though still not as simple as an open skiff. She does well on a smooth lake, but shows her flat bottom, when pushed to her upper speed limits and/or in rough water. It turns well and is a handy, utility craft. Build time may be in the 200 to 400 range, depending on finish.

    Ultimately you need to decide what you want, not in terms of the specific design, but your needs. In most every case, the needs of the boat's use, it's owner, etc. will determine the best suited design.

    A Michael mentioned, my Digger 17 which is a very simple boat, that requires very little power to propel it. It's designed to make boating easy to build and accessible to every budget. Some of the high speed V bottoms are great to look at and operate, but when you cost out the price of a new 75 HP outboard, things come back to reality pretty quickly. Digger 17 is a clamming skiff, very tough and simple to build. There are two versions, a tough one and bullet proof one. The bullet proof version has a bottom that's 1 1/2" thick, so rocks, logs and wayward, but obnoxious mermaids that happen to get run down, aren't much of a problem. It can be built with Lowe's/Depot materials and preforms very well with just a 20 HP outboard. I've had as much as a 50 on one, but this is way over the top in regard to what it needs. The raw hull could be built in less than 30 hours and the completed hull less then 80 hours. Simple boats have advantages.

    Again, you have to decide what role the boat must play. Don't look for a design that can handle the worst possible situation, as you'll just be burdened with a craft, way over qualified for it's every day tasks. In capable hands, all of these boats can take on chop and rough conditions. In the same vain, all of these boats could be easily overwhelmed, by skipper mistakes or plain old bad luck. In other words, it's costs a lot more to build a tank, capable of tolerating most everything mother nature can toss your way, but you then have to drag around, all this mostly unnecessary heft, on a calm summer's afternoon, which shows up when you put fuel in it's tank and have to pay for materials during the build.

    Make a list of your absolute needs and prioritize them. We'll have a look and see what fits . . .
     
  4. troy2000
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    I just spent some time looking over the three plans originally mentioned, plus PAR's Digger 17. I like all of them. But if I wanted to build a boat using young, enthusiastic and unskilled labor, I'd go for the Digger 17. Among other considerations, the shorter build time needed to show tangible results for their efforts would be most encouraging to them....

    And the lapped version has that extra touch of class, which should make the boat an easy sell once it's built.
     
  5. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Troy, it appears Kim is also fishing around on other sites with the same question, which is a good idea, though she still needs to establish an SOR, so an intelligent decision about which design is most suited to her needs can be made. She seems to want a 20'+ boat, which places the Diablo (including the Grande) and Digger out of reach as both are already stretched versions of a smaller boat The Diablo Grande is a 18' stretch of the 15' Diablo and Digger 17 is a stretch of Digger 15. Digger 17 could get a slight big longer, but only a foot or so, before wholesale changes to her dimensions, volume distribution and scantling would need to be considered. We'll just have to wait for her to get back to us with a basic SOR.
     
  6. Tinklespout
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    Tinklespout Junior Member

    I appreciate the help here. I was thinking 20 foot or more to get a better ride. I don't want sacrifice efficiency though. Sounds like I can get a good ride out of the 18 foot boats though. My approach was to try to get everything but then of course settle in on what is practical. Sound like the 18 (or so) footers is where I want to be for practical reasons:
    1 efficiency
    2 good ride if weather goes bad, won't go looking for it.
    3 easy build, prefer to not use kit because it raises cost.
    4 good looks for selling the boats and making build fun.
    5 trailerability, moving around, etc.

    Someone mentioned throwing the PT Skiff in the mix.

    Kim
     
  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The Tolman and Panga are out, because they aren't especially efficient. The Marissa from B&B would be a good 18' choice (> http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/ec018.htm <), though not as easy to build as a skiff, it is efficient and can handle rougher conditions. The PT Skiff is another choice with similar attributes, though not as good as the Marissa. The Diablo would also be a good choice and the most efficient of the three just mentioned and the easier build.

    There's really no such thing as a good ride when the weather turns sour. Some boats are more comfortable with these conditions, but you pat for this in other areas of the preformance and ownership envelops. The ability of any small craft to handle a rough slosh, safely and with reasonable comfort is mostly a skipper thing. The Marissa would be the most marketable, followed by the PT Skiff. Bolger fans abound, but most have issues with the Diablo's looks from certain angles, so the market is much smaller. The workboat and clamming skiffs seen on every waterfront are in the same marketing boat as the Diablo, with a limited, but loyal market.

    All of these boats trailer well.
     
  8. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The PT skiff is a nice boat. I wouldnt own one as a general purpose skiff because its expensive and fragile.

    You need to state whether you are building to teach kids how to use their hands and heads or building to sell.

    The very simplest boats teach kids how to work.

    None of the boats built by kids could be sold at a profit.

    A very good project for junior boatbuilders would be a wooden stand up paddle board. Low material costs , easy for kids to get excited about and all the lessons a young boat builder needs to get started

    http://[​IMG]
     
  9. Tinklespout
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    Tinklespout Junior Member

    Not interested in profit, only want to make enough to fund next boat and pay the rent. There will be other sources to help with costs too but the kids being motivated to make money to pay the bills is another good lesson learned.

    I don't want to push them to be boat builders, great if it happens to work out that way though. Using tools, teamwork, using their brains are all great benefits to help lead them down a technical path and I Strongly believe we need more technical types. We don't need everyone to be engineers; sorry, but I have strong opinions in this area. I had a technical degree and ended up supervising 20 myopic engineers and PhD's. it comes down to creativity and thinking outside the box, not good engineering traits, nor PhD traits for that matter when moving outside of their very small box. Sorry, here I go again on a rant.

    So it sounds like the Marissa is the choice as the PT sounds fragile and would be more like putting together an expensive puzzle? So what happened to the Digger? Can't it be extended just tiny bit?

    Kim
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Michael, she does seem to want a powerboat, not a surfboard on steroids, though the point about teaching children is noted. I think the simplest boat to build with kids, is a small outboard skiff (14' - 17'). It has few parts, is easily handled on the beach or at the ramp and it could be carried around the shop by a few workers too. I do agree that we could use more definition of the role the children will play. Are they to build or just enjoy the end product after construction? It they're to build a skiff or modified sharpie/skiff is the easy route, but not as marketable as a deep V with a 75 HP outboard hanging on it's transom.

    Kim, it's important to understand that small power craft are really little more than a free hull, with the purchase of engine, controls, steering and other gear. The trailer and hull shell are essentially along for the ride. Simply put, a fabulous hull shell that has a crap engine, with shot controls, worn out steering and missing electronics just doesn't sell. On the other hand, you can sell a worn out, crappy hull shell, if it has a good engine, controls, steering and working gear.

    So, more input about the role of kids and their participation in the program is necessary I think. If you intend to take a reinforced platoon of them on day trips, the design selection will likely change a bit, with emphasis on seating and accommodation, rather then preformance in a chop. On the other hand, if building to develop skills and build self confidence in the youngsters, than a sexy center console, that scoots really well, might be just the ticket.
     
  11. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Probably isn't going to happen. Much safer to assume the residual value is zero and work out your budget from there. Doing it this way means that if you do even break even on materials, it's a bonus.

    Read over the threads on home built boats and see how many manage to recoup their build costs. It's rare.

    PDW
     
  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Unless a home made boat is built with a level of finish and professionalism not commonly seen in home builds, the resale value will be basically the value of the engine, trailer and equipment installed.
     
  13. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Sell 200 raffle tickets at 25 a ticket and you can make 5000 from a 1000 dollar skiff.

    Kids get to learn buisness

    What are the laws concerning new backyard boats for sale ? In Europe the backyard builder is restricted from selling his boat for several years..
     
  14. Tinklespout
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    Tinklespout Junior Member

    The teenagers will only be involved in the build. I'm sure that we can add a caveat that the buyer has to give them a ride when the boat is fitted out, mainly for a phot op for us.

    So keep in mind that these are teens and I can see them (or hope anyway) getting pretty serious about the build. The raffle is a fantastic idea.

    Yes, I understand that a lot more cost is required to get her going. My hope here is that someone (the buyer) will remove everything from a smaller boat and be exited about upgrading to this larger and more efficient hull. That's an important aspect of this whole project, pushing efficiency, less fossil fuels, etc..

    So it seems we're getting close and then someone throws a wrench into it. They suggested that a Boson's Mate 23 design from Australia could be built for a small additional cost. The size may overwhelm us for the first build but what do you think about this for the second or third build to keep the teenagers inspired. It appears none have been built yet but the hull may be based on a very common cabin boat.

    http://www.bowdidgemarinedesigns.com/Bowdidge_Marine_Designs_1/Bosuns_Mate_23.html

    I hope the link works. Do you think this would be a weak boat?

    Your help is Greatly appreciated here.

    Kim
     

  15. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The problem is that there are HUNDREDS OF GREAT BOATS TO BUILD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    In the end you have to use your own instincts.



    You are in Florida ,home of the successful www.bateau.com company.

    They would be a very good source for suggestions, materials and student encouragement via their website of builders.
     
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