BOL D'OR 2018

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Doug, try reading what is written. That way you will realise that your post 28 was based on a mis-reading, and you may also see the use of the term "apparently" in post 30. Any reasonable person knows that that using the word "apparently" in that context means that one is specifically stating it's NOT known to be a fact.

    Here's the Cambridge definition of "apparently";

    "apparently Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/apparently

    1. used to say you have read or been told something
    although you are not certain it is true:" (my underline)

    You have written that you have not sailed your foilers much, apparently for family reasons. I relied on that information and specifically used a word that says I was not certain it was true. I did not make up "facts" or make a personal attack - I used a disclaimer.

    By the way, if you are going to give lectures on manners, you could show some yourself by admitting that you were completely wrong to read a post that specifically referred to 120 Surprises as being about a race with Moths in it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  2. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    Yes, there is that possibility, and lake sailing is the most likely to have such variation. But by not being a dedicated foiler, the Gonet may be restricted in its ability to foil so can only do so for limited wind angles. The Quant 23 may have a wider range of wind angles at which it can foil.

    Regarding the Bol d'Or Mirabaud, it's very difficult to compare the performance of a particular boat against others when there's only one of them. So much can depend on a single decision resulting in catching or missing a small pressure system. If there were 6 or 7 Gonets in a race it would be interesting to see how they compare to each other as well as the fleet.

    If the "850kg" number is with a crew of 4 (as reported by CNN), and allowing 80kg/crew, that's around 530kg for the boat which is a good number for an 8 metre sports boat (e.g. Elliot 7 is 850kg and Shaw 750 880kg, but neither of those are full–on carbon boats). CT249 might know of some better boats for comparison.

    I wish there was less focus on whether a particular boat was the best (by whatever criteria) or fastest in all conditions or across some unspecified wind range and more on simply whether the boat is good to sail for its class or type. There are boats like the Elliot 7 and Shaw 650 that have done very well by trading a bit of performance to control cost, be relatively well mannered and easy to sail rather than being ten—tenths racers. Boats that rely on performance to sell tend to disappear when they are surpassed by the next generation or prove too difficult to sail or maintain. The Ultimate 30 might be a good example of that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  3. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    /\

    Great post. The fact that boats that rely on performance are unpopular makes it difficult to make comparisons in the Bol d'Or. There seem to be very, very few boats that are anywhere like as performance-oriented as the Quants and Gonet. Since the brief heyday of the Libera class (which included some Ultimates after that series died) it seems that attention has shifted towards the boats that are well mannered and easy to sail, such as Esses and Luthis. Obviously they are not meant to be compared to carbon foilers.

    I was lucky enough to watch the Liberas in their hey-day in the Centromiglia, with maybe half a dozen 44s and a bunch of Bs (about 1om long) and Cs (8.5m if I recall correctly) coming past us in a windsurfer world championship lay-day. I got a lift to the far shore with AMAC and we watched those amazing boats blast upwind and plane downwind on a golden Garda day. Like so many boats, they were stunning creatures, but not practical enough to survive. Ironically, it was the peak year of windsurfing too, before it faded for the same reasons. This year's Bol d'Or programme included a warning from the former record holder, who is concerned that sailing is going down the same path of self-destruction.
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Gonet Monofoiler The thing about the Gonet is that it was the only foiler in this very light air race that exceeded expectations for foilers. Every other foiler did relatively poorly in the conditions. That is a BIG deal because it shows that with great design foilers can be competitive when they're not foiling all the time!
    And the Gonet did it in only her second race ever........
     
  5. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    The closest comparable boat in the race was a non-foiler, 2ft longer but 30 years older. It easily beat the Gonet, as well as the DSS boats.

    Getting beaten by boats that are 30 years older is not an indication of being competitive.

    By the way, are you going to have the manners and integrity to apologise for insulting me because you somehow thought that a reference to a race with 120 Surprises was a reference to a Moth race?
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==========================
    That is very convoluted thinking . Especially when you consider the Gonet Monofoiler was in the lead at one point for some time. Black Swan did not easily beat the monofoiler since she only won by almost 2 minutes after nearly 19 hours of racing! In the fluky, light air conditions Black Swan was lucky she won! The Gonet proved that a foiler can be designed to perform well in any condition-foiling or not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==================
    Based on the way you wrote post 27, my response in post 28 was measured and very appropriate. I stand by it 100%.
     
  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Why did you think a reference to a boat "2ft longer and 30 years older" was a reference to Black Swan? The Gonet was beaten by an old Ultimate 30.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I only looked at overall and her class which was TCF1. Black Swan was first by a couple of minutes in TCf1.
    -----
    The Ult 30 which was third in her class-TCFX-and several other TCFX boats also were ahead of the monofoilers class-TCF1. TBS won the TCFX class -and was the first monohull to finish.
    Classement général temps réel http://www.boldormirabaud.ch/fr-ch/index.cfm?page=/bom/home/resultats/general_tr

    --------------------------
    You use an old tactic by saying Gonet was beaten"by an old Ultimate 30"* in an effort to denigrate the success the Gonet monofoiler had in her own class-that's really sad.
    * as were the vast majority of the boats in the TCFX class and all the boats in the TCF1 class!
    There are reasons they were in two different classes: among them the Ultimate-well maintained in top form- is four feet longer that the Gonet Monofoiler .

    Ultimate 30: Ultimate 30 Sailboat http://strictlysailinc.com/ultimate%2030.htm
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018

  10. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Look Doug, read the forum rules. Your continued insults, insinuations and attacks are not permitted here, especially when they are spurred by your mis-reading of my posts.

    I have already stated "The Gomet did quite well" and "The Gomet did well for a new boat". The plain English meaning of "did well" is positive and therefore your claims that I was denigrating the boat are illogical and contrary to plain English.

    It should be apparent that all I'm trying to do is put it in perspective. Yes, I did think the Gonet was 8.5m instead of 8m and I'm honest enough to admit I got it wrong. It would be nice if you would admit when you did the same. Given the normal progress in boat design and the rule of thumb that 1 foot of length gives about 1% of speed, it would be expected that a new boat should do well against a 30 year old boat.

    The reason I compared the Gonet to the U30 was because TCF1 is largely composed of boats that are either racer/cruisers or offshore-style boats, much less extreme than the Gonet, or much older than the Gonet.

    This forum is surely about attempting to OBJECTIVELY assess boat designs. That means that we must assess the craft that are involved and try to put their performance into perspective, rather than just making deal when they do well. An objective examination of the race would, for example, mean that we make just as big a deal of the defeat of the Quants by a much smaller Thompson design as was made of the Q30's victories. An objective and informative examination would also note that only two foilers did reasonably well. If you were prepared to do that we may clash less. I won't hold my breath.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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