boat stuck in mould

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by whacker82, May 25, 2012.

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  1. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Agreed. You beat me to the post. :)
     
  2. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    whacker82 Senior Member

    i was thinking every four inches maybe, now im thinking just to cut the stem and apart of the keel where the problem area is, like rwatson suggested, it would be easier and alot less painful i must put up a few pictures of what it looks like now before cutting it. just be warned its not pretty so be easy guys
     
  3. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    May the wind be at your back!

    (So you won't be covered in fiberglass dust)
     
  4. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Ok if you are hell bent on cutting the mold theN cut straight down the bow and into the fore foot and open it gently . No need to get carried away and chop the thing from end to end !!.
    Im glad some of you guys dont work for me !!
    An angle grinder with a diamond concrete cutting blade will do nicely . Its slower than a proper diamond blade and if you gently start at the top and wedge between the hull and the mould bothsides as soon as the mould is cut it will spring apart so you can see clearly and not dammage the boat to much !!.
    DONT USE A SAW BLADE !!!! it will chip and make a mess ,a diamond masonary blade has way less diamond so will cut nice and neat and clean !! there are fine carborundum metal cutting blades also. Not the big thick ones Thin is better . one side should part quite easy than the stuck side you should be able to get some long soft wood wedges into the edges of the stuck area and gentle ease it apart but its going to be a mess so live with it and get it done !!careful pushing the wedge straight in as it could go between the layers of glass not the gel coat !! with enough pressure it will simply let go and you can lift the hull out .
    PICTURES NEED PICTURES OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHAT YOU FIND WHEN ITS APART !! :(
     
  5. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    whacker82 Senior Member

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    this is all i can upload at the moment, internet is playing up
     
  6. midnitmike
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    Location: Haines and Juneau

    midnitmike Senior Member

    I know this won't bring you any solice considering the situation, but if I had to hazard a guess as to what might have caused this in the first place it's what you said about your wax application procedure in one of your previous posts that caught my eye.

    Waxing even a small mold is a time consuming process not so much because of the surface area involved, but rather the time required in letting each wax layer cure and harden. In your post you mentioned waxing basically one coat after another...ten minutes to dry...and a half hour cure time between coats.

    By using this wax on/wax off method each successive layer simply lifted the previous layer....leaving you in the end with just one very thin layer of wax as your only release agent. You might be able to get away with this on a seasoned mold that's had five or ten parts pulled from it simply because the previous wax layers have had sufficient time and heat to cure the wax, but it's never a good procedure to follow.

    And old mold maker told me once (after I did this myself) that each wax coat deserves a day to fully cure before applying the next coat, and you know what just about every time I didn't heed that sage advice I had problems.

    You've already had a lot of good advice as to how to get these two apart, so there isn't much I can add to the collective wisdom that's been given. In deciding how to procede I would only offer this...which part is the most valuable to you? If it's the mold then cut the boat out and do what you can to save it. If it's the boat and the mold is going to the scrapyard when you're done then cut the mold up and concentrate on the boat.

    Personally, the mold has more intrinsic value to me because you can always make another boat, but a good mold is worth far more then the material it's made from.

    MM
     
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  7. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SamSam Senior Member

    So this is the mold you whacked with a hammer and star cracked it up inside. Is that where it's stuck?

    How many boats have come from this mold?

    Looking at the gelcoated mold, the flanges look all grungy, like not a black or orange tooling gel was used. Somewhere else, I believe you said the mold was flimsy.

    It sounds like a splashed mold, like someone made a quick copy of another boat. Is that what it is?
     
  8. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    whacker82 Senior Member

    samsam since this is my first mould i didnt really know what to look out for but when it was brought home and i waxed it only then did i see the small errors and defects around the mould, its exactly that a quick copy of another boat.

    midnitmike thanks they are both valuable to me i want to save the two but it keeps coming back to me is what bataan said?

     
  9. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SamSam Senior Member

    Aside from the possible ethics issues of using a splashed mold, if the transom of the hull is raised so as to give a little clearance between it and the back end of the mold, is it possible to push the bow stem straight back (not lifting) where the hull moves even a tiny bit (fraction of an inch) backwards? If it moves at all, the hull is not chemically glued to the mold, but is held by negative draft.
     
  10. wet feet
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    wet feet Senior Member

    Ifa previous hull has comefrom the mould,the draft can't be too wrong.The application of the wax or maybe its incompatibility with a previous release agent would seem to lie at the root of the problem.By not leaving any featuresto grip and pullthe hull by,you have definitely made life harder than it needs to be.My proposed remedy would be to glass a fairly substantial piece of wood into the bow such that a pieceof 6X2 on blocks could be used across the sheer to allow a large G-cramp to apply a hefty force while jiggling the already released part of the hull.If the hull can be removed-even in pieces-thoroughly clean the mould and then apply a good release agent following the makers instructions to the letter.
     
  11. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    whacker82 Senior Member

    when i used the release agent the first time i never cleaned it off properly just washed it with water and started my second wax, dont think this would be the problem? or would it. and if it is why did the back come free.

    if its not out of proportion at the very bottom of the keel i would happly cut the boat out of the mold so i could continue on making boats. this is a real pickle so it is. is the only way to find out the exact problem would be to cut the boat out of the mould. would it reveal the problem im wondering?

    also i layed in the first 3 layers of fiberglass in a row first 350gsm then 2 layers of 450gsm. and left it out in the sun to dry, i then put in my final 2 layers of 450gsm and put out to dry the rest is history.

    when i did the first boat i put in the first layer of fiberglass 350gsm left it to dry inside, then put in the second layer of fiberglass 450gsm left it to dry and did the same with the third.
    then i released it from the mold to make sure all was ok before continuing with the last two layers. and it release without problem. i put it back in and continued with the final two layers.

    thats the difference with the too boats ive built. but if i did it wrong the second time why is it stuck only where the keel meets the stem???
     
  12. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Like i said you may never know what the cause is !! could be one of a million things !!
    USING PVA WILL TAKE AWAY ALL THE GUESS WORK BELIEVE ME !!
    Just washing the pva is ok and if there had been anything left on the surface you would have noticed it when you were waxing !!. Taking the boat out in bits is a waste of materials . stuck is stuck you will find out what is stronger the boat or the mould so get on with it . all the days wasted it could have been over and done and repaired and ready to make another boat by now !!

    Laying up a small boat specially a clinker lay a 450 first and roll it well , let go hard and then 2 layers at a time its easyer to roll thicker glass than thinner glass ! clinkers are not easy at anytime and 90% of the rolling can be achieved with a 4 to 6 inch paint roller then a final roll out with a hard roller .
    I had a 7 foot clinker hull and was a hot favorite at that time for peolple with trailer sailors . Used to make 2 a day in my garage ! could have any colour you wanted as long as it was white !!!
    When laying thicker glass there will be slightly more shrinkage so by the end of the lay up the boat will be 80 to 90% of the hull will have released from the mould all by its self for sure !!.
    Used to run a releasing knife round the edge and in the back with the garden hose , turn the water slowly and have a cup of tea come out the hull was floating !!, flip the mould over on the lawn and the boat dropped on the grass then straight on with the next one .Clean ,dry and spray pva and ready in less than 10 minutes !! Hand brushed the gel coat at 1.75% catalyst and was off hard in about 2 hours or less and into the next boat ! I used white pigmented resin for the glassing so when finished the inside was totally finished and coloured all way through so no second gel was required and no flow coating the inside .

    End of the week lined all 10 boats and speckle coated the insides with Gel coat late afternoon and saturday morning delived them to have there wood work done

    i had a boat builder friend that did the wood work so between us was a full time job ! 10 boats a week during the summer months !!.

    Producing the same artical day in and day out you get into a rythem and make things happen quicker till its all working like clock work . :D

    One company i worked at we make canopys for utilitys and used pigmented resin always !!was hard to get used to but once mastered was a breeze and saved so much time .
    Another boat cmpany the same all the last skins of glass were pigmented resin !! all done before the hulls and decks were released from the mould !!
    .The time saving using pigmented is well worth the inital hassle to learning to use it . cut out 2 complete operations !! second gel coating and flow coating !!
    Good luck and get on with it !! :D
     
  13. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    whacker82 Senior Member

    tunnels, if i used the 450 first on over the gel coat would it not be harder to imprint the clinker look onto the boat?

    what thickness should the gel coat be?

    how did you get the gel coat to go hard in 2hr

    i cant spray the pva just hand wipe it on, if i was to start one boat after another do you think i would only need to put the pva on once before applying the gel coat to make the second boat? would the water not disolve the pva?

    i used the white pigmented resin for the second one must admit that it made the job alot faster. the white resin i got was for spray application but i just rolled it in. it came across alot like water compared to the clear polyester resin which was alot thicker. the clear resin was brush on.

    ok ive cut the boat out of the mould and there was no way it was gonna come easy have a look

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    still wont budge

    [​IMG]
     
  14. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    got the arse of it out here came out easy as predicted.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    in the two places here its stuck solid, (picture below) this is where the problem was all along

    [​IMG]

    was this the problem i used this to fill in a coulple of chip marks on the boat in these two exact places to where its stuck,

    [​IMG]

    ill put some pictures up with the damage done to the mould hopefully i can get some advice on how to repair it so i can start another boat. ive took the loss on the head and all i want now to get going on another
     

  15. midnitmike
    Joined: Apr 2012
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    midnitmike Senior Member

    Well, it's nice to see that even after all this you're ready to make another boat. There isn't hardly a guy here who hasn't stuck a part once or twice...probably why there was no shortage of ideas on how to get your's apart...;)

    As to why it stuck, I think you hit the nail on the head when you brought up the fact that you had used gelcoat filler in these two places. The rest of the hull was appearently in good enough condition that your waxing regimen was sufficient for a smooth release, but this new material...it didn't work so well there. If it were me and depending on the size of the blemishes in the mold I might have chosen clay, wax, bondo, or high build primer to clean up the area. I should point out that many times I only need to get one or two parts out of a mold, so I don't often take the time to do a permanent fix. Once you get the area cleaned up and post some pics I'm sure there will be plenty of opinions as to how to go about fixing your mold.

    Hmmm...now that I'm looking at your pictures I remember doing one almost exactly like this a long time ago. That mold was I taken from an old wooden skiff that the owner wanted to preserve. Considering what he started out with he didn't do too bad a job, and somehow I was tasked with making the mold useable. Needless to say there were weeks of patching, repairing and sanding involved before we could even attempt a part. As time wore on my boss was getting overanxious to see some "real" progress, so I made a deal with him. Let me do the work the way I want, but I get the first part. I'll do it your way the second time around and you get that one. Needless to say the whole project came to an end when that second part failed to release and the mold was destroyed.

    MM


    As hard as this might have been for you to go through, rest assured you're not alone
     
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