boat stuck in mould

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by whacker82, May 25, 2012.

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  1. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    untill you dont have even the wiff of a problem i will be on your tail !!

    why you run out ? do your calculations its .6kg gelcoat per square meter !! you should have all the measurements of the boat and know exactly how big it actually is so you can work out how much geloat !!, how much glass ,how much resin ,how much catalyst ,number of hours ,almost to the minute all these things because you have just a wee dinghy ,I do all this every day and have the figures and information written and on file of every step and every half step involved in every boat i make no mater how big be it the 17.5 foot bow rider to the 90 footer and the 48 and the 28 footer plus everything inbetween !! Spread sheet everything if need be ! its a way of working out the actual cost of your boat to the last cent and the hours and everything else you might need . all these things are useful for you when you get to do another project .
    keep a record of the build !!, i also go over every part and take pictures of potentual problems that could possibly come back to bite at a later date . never let your guard down for one fraction of a second !! .
    temp gel times and resin and glass weights everything get used to knowing exactly where you are and what you doing .
    Dont know if you manage to read other post on this site but should read and look at all thats going on that others exsperiance . have a pair of 80 foot hulls plus moulds for open boat plus infusion and a guy with a massive grinding job on his hull that has osmosis . all there things are interesting and things you should learn about The infusion thing you were interested in is a totall waste of time and has more problems than you could shake a stick at . so when you have 5 years of hand laminating and maybe a little gun application work under your belt then reopen the file and have a look and tread very carefully .I can still build better boats doing hand lay up with far less potentual problems than any infused boat , so im not really that interested . peel ply laminates are almost as low in resin content as infusion so why bother filling the bin with lots of plastic and hoses and rubbish for very little gain .
    So you have a 24 hour window to get and second coat ! and your catalyst ratio will be ????? :confused:you are taking chances again !! dont do it !!
  2. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 146
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 33
    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    i ran out simple as though i would have enough on what i had, if money grew on trees id have a barrel of the stuff, but it dosent so i cant. u have to remember that im not working and i cant afford buying things and paying for delivery when i might not get to use them, that money can be spent on something else.
    im in no rush with this and im taking my time everything is done right no rushing about, its been waxed and pva'd and the first layer of tooling gel is on. tue will see the second layer on and wed will be the first layer of 300gsm glass going on.
  3. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    spoon feeding !

    money !! whats money for ?
    You should never have put pva the hull and applyed the gelcoat if you knew you didnt have enought gel coat to complete the job !! so the gel will sit for more than 24 hours ?? these things are where you get yourself into trouble and wonder why !!
    You need to make a work sheet and list all your jobs in the order of priority and according to the materials you have on hand at the time , if you have to order more then the jobs they are bought for are slotted into the list in the right order ! dont start something of you cant complete it !!!

    I have been trying to get this company to use a white board and list every job and do a complete break down of everything . but they are headless chinese chickens ! they dont run far and fall over quickly and dont move much .or they sit and drink tea ,talk about nothing and go to sleep regularly :confused::eek::mad::?::rolleyes:.
  4. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Ok its wednesday !! where you at ??

    So gel coat for the second coat has arrived ?? how the 24 hour window ? been exstended has it ??
    Once gel coat looses its sticky surface means its cured right to the top and the next coat of gel coat has less adhession to or penetration into the gel coat below .
    Have seen old gelcoat that was resin-ed and glassed and the glass simply came off when a small amount of pressure was applied .
    Timing is important . Like has been said before you are better to delay for a day and give the mould an extra wax than carry on and end up with another can of worms that could open later .
    Dont leave things to chance !! do it right, do it once and get on with it !Everything has been repeated a couple of times before already . :confused: If you are in doubt re-read or print out all the parts of the hundreds of posts on this site with every bit of information to read and do the job properly !!:D
    Gives me a head ache thinking about all this !!
  5. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    ok its thursday ! wheres whacker ??

    Second coat gell on and the first and possibly the second skins of glass !! just a couple if layers at a time once you get further on can lay 3 layers at a time . when its finished do a bake job like i discribed . I hope you got a flange round the top !
    Two more days at work and then going to Shanghai for the weekend !!Need time out !:):D
  6. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 146
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 33
    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    ok this wat happened on one side of the boat air bubbles started to appear, and for love nor money would they go down, i applied resin before i applied the glass and after dunno why this happened but it did. so i decided to release it and see what was the damage like.
    well it released with no problems at all which i was amazed by since this was the whole problem at the start. just popped out. but the air bubbles did more damage then i though so ive decided to pack it in. once and for all.
    im not pissed off or anything like that ive just accepeted it and im moving on its not for me at this time.
    when i think about it i was trying to make a boat mould from a damaged mould which produced a damaged boat and copy this hull to make boat mould, then produce boats from this mould and advertise them as new. this is all wrong.
    i know i can do it now well at least got a release which im suprisingly delighted with. i suppose this side didnt beat me.
    so whats my plan by a immimaculate mould or buy a boat with a perfect hulll and make a mould again. all this will happen next year as winter is fast approaching.
    i know one or two here are not going to be happy and want answers but ive finally accepted what has happened its just not for me at the moment.
    i just want to say a massive thank you to everyone here who has being patient and helpful beyond my understanding, really it was amazing the help i was getting ye know who ye are.
    the last thing i wanted was to let ye down it was quiet hard to come back on here knowing that it was not a success but it had to be done.
    ok im going on abit here so ill leave it at that. thanks again people, boats really do bring people together.
  7. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    Its been a learning experience for a lot of us too - thanks for sharing.

    Keep in touch when you get back to it.

    If its not too much of a bother, feel free to post photos of the damage.

    We can all have two or three weeks worth of entertainment do a post mortem ;)
  8. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    when you say bubbles appeared was the gell coat all wrinkled !! post pictures lots pictures !!
    post them please !!!
  9. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    You have a catalyst measureing problem !! i am sure !!!

    i am very sure you have a catalyst measureing problem What ever you are using and doing everything all the way from way back , everything points to slow brews and slow cure and slow going off when you have added heat poof it goes hard !! addng all the problems you have had they all strongly linked to catalyst i am sure . Bubbles appearing will have been from the gelcoat wrinking under the glass !! cant roll down yes deffinitely aligators . the styrene in the resin is attacking the gelcoat , the gel coat is not cured !! its under catalysed .First coat and second coat and the glass you put on the cataslyst must have been really low .
    Have you been actually reading what we have all been writting ?? its all written there how to do the job first coat !! second coat !!! the first coat of glass and the second and all the layers from there on !!!.
    How many mls of catalyst do you use in each kilo of gelcoat ????? for the first coat
    What about the second coat how many mls for each kilogram of gel coat ??
    The resin you have whats the catalyst ratio for that .
    how many mls for each kilogram ???? Did i see a syringe that you were using as a measure ?? are you reading it properly ?? what are the graduations on the outside . Pictures please is it marked in cc of ml ??
    Pictures of the measure you use to dispence the catalyst with . also a clear detailed picture in close up of the lable on the catalyst bottle so we can all read it !!! .
    In all my 35 years of playing with glass i have never ever heard of anyone having the problems you have had ,never .i even showed the receptionist lady from television workshops how to do glass work and she never has one single problem and made all kinds of thing at home in her basement , kids toys and garden things .
    i have 2 sons that do glass work never had problems .
    A friend i gave info over the phone in one call not never ever had a problem !
    Here we have the most hardcase mob of chinese workers and they have problems but of a differant sort .
    The tahitian guys i worked with were not able to speak one word of english and they were the best laminaters i ever worked with any where !! we use silicone car wax because thats all there was , we had one 3inch paint brush , and 2 hard rollers one big and one small and one 6 inch mohair to wet out with , everyone took it in turns using the gear and there work was perfect in every way from one end of the boat to the other . I was there for 12 months and enjoyed every minute of the time !!.
    Some one up stairs dosent like you !!
  10. midnitmike
    Joined: Apr 2012
    Posts: 257
    Likes: 20, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 167
    Location: Haines and Juneau

    midnitmike Senior Member

    I am sorry to hear that your project hasn't worked out as planned. Building molds and fiberglass products can be a frustrating process for anyone...I know because I've lost my fair share of parts as well.

    Take care, I wish you well my friend.

  11. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 146
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 33
    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    i was wondering when i was going to hear from you again.:) thanks i just feel at this stage its not for me right now, being honest if i was to write down here all the signs i was getting from everthing to do with making my boat and mould, ye would definetly say that there is a higher force pushing me away from it. ye have no idea just going to have to trust me on this one.
    am its not in me anymore when i first started off there was a fire in my stomach proberly spent the bones of a year on and off you tube watching people and asking them questions on how its done. when i got my mould it was like a sign.
    ill tell ye how i got it.
    i spent 4 months waiting patiently over the winter looking on all the websites on and or own done nothing was appering here in ireland the odd one every month or so in england. i was telling a fellow at work the whole time about it and how i could not track one down in ireland. went and did a timber boat building course hopeing maybe that someone knew there where there is one. but nothing. (really enjoyed that course too)
    so one day i was chatting to the buddy at work boring him talking about how im thinking of heading over to england to buy the next mold i see for sale, when i got a tingle to check the irish website, so i did and low and behold was the mould only advertised 5 min. so i rang him straight away and told him to hold on to it for me and ill be up the weekend to collect it.
    when i was looking at it, it looked perfect to me nice handy sized mould. drove for 7 hours up and down to get it. and was i happy with it. and so the fire begun.
    not for this to turn against me and completly flip the other way was and has been soul destroying. everything seemed to be pusing me away from it once i got the first release. that fire has now well and truely being quenched. its out for now but will come back again.
    the mould i got was not even a proper mould so i got off to a bad start straight away, and with no experience it really was a disaster waiting to happen and it happened. i am at peace with it now, and when i saw the air bubbles i knew it was game over, but when i got the release it was like i won some of the war, PVA is a cool substance.

    now tunnels yes i will upload pictures and plenty of them, but its flogging rain at the moment and its out in the field so it will be tomorrow before ill put them up.
    when you were saying the styrene was attacking the gel your bang on there, while i was applying the resin over the gel, i noticed it buring into the gel coat in parts of the boat and went straight down to the boat where i could see white. so this upset me. all my meausure ments were first layer of gel got 20ml per kg and second layer got 2.5. pictures pictures pictures will be tomorrow. ill finish the boat and pop a picture of it up here when its finished.

    someone upstairs dosent like you.
    dont think ill agree with that, think im being told to try something else. it sure has felt like it.:)
  12. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    some where you are not reading the signs !!!

    As you are doing things you are not reading any of the signs . your day starts when you wake up and put your feet on the floor . read the signs , weather is first . during the night things were wet cold damp ??? so the door swings open and you step into your shed the thermometer on the wall tells you the temrature is ?? so immediatly think . close the door and warm the place a little and dry the mould . gel coats are cold and so the gel time will be long so a little warmth on the mould before you even start its going to be slow so the 20ml could safely go to 25ml without having to worry just brush it a little more !!.
    After its on the warmth can go up a little more , and get the gel cured in about 3 hours should be close to rock hard and the second coat , add a little resin in the gel makes it flow out better and the 25ml can go to 27ml to 28 ml or so , moulds warm so will send it off quickly , all the time thinking of one thing, the gel time !!
    second coat is done and 3 hours of warm mould its ready for the first glass , same again but you could have been using 15 ml so that needs to come up to 20ml per/kg this is first skin so start and get the feel of the resin gel time ,25 minutes should be just starting to gell. could stay with the 25 ml and do the same sized area or 27ml and work a little quickler you are never going to get the whole of one side done and rolled out in one lot so live with it ,by the time you got from one end to the other the first lot should be completely hard ,finished one side and round the corner and into the other side
    all the time thinking about the gel time the 27 could come down as the day is warming and so reaction time is coming up to less than 25 minute so lower the catalyst a little down to 25 ml.
    Ahh thats better just a few more minutes of working time . when its all done and you rolled the last lots down and cleaned you gear and you hands time to step outside and take a breather .
    This should have been close to what would or should have been happening .
    The world is spinning and every hour, every minute is changing if you not reading the signs and intouch you will have problems for ever more ! reading and doing can be two completely differant things we are all hundreds of mile from you we are all trying very hard to give you the knowledge and wisdom to work and make a good job but some where its you that has to look and use all these things and make it work . you have made every mistake in the book vertually but why ?? with each mistake comes a thousand questions how did it happen and why did it happen you are the person that has to look and say it was this that caused it so do thid and that probelm will go away . unless you do some testing and exsperimenting of your own you will be standing for ever more wondering why me what have i done . When man went to the moon there was no guild book to follow every step . books and information are just guides thats all . you have to put all that knowledge into prospective ,its a guide only . step out of you crib and use your brain, think a little more !!! go and mix brews of gel till they cook and splutter and crack and fall apart . mix some resin and over catalyse and watch it smoke and turn golden color and crack and hiss etc etc but take note of how long it takes to cool down . stays hot for quite some time then cools quickly . its a chemical reaction . dont blame the products they are doing what you are telling them to do in the conditions you are working in . think !!! how are you going to get them do do what you want !!! you are in total control of whats happening !!you just you alone and no one else .
    Im in for the long haul on this and i hope im not alone :(.

    Know and understand the products you work with ! know what you can do and what you cant do !, understand there limitations !!!
  13. midnitmike
    Joined: Apr 2012
    Posts: 257
    Likes: 20, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 167
    Location: Haines and Juneau

    midnitmike Senior Member

    You're right, I can only guess at all of the contradictory information you might have gotten over the last few months. It can often seem that there's no right way to do something when you're getting so much "advice". I'm thinking one of these days (in the spring maybe) you'll get that old fire back, and tackle this build once more.

    Although you had a pretty rough start you've managed to completely recondition both a mold and a plug...this is no small feat my friend and a worthy accomplishment in my book...congradulations.

    Along the way you've probably learned more about fiberglass then you thought possible. So all in all this wasn't a complete may have a cost you some money, but there aren't many things in life that are free... now are there?

    I do wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do...just do me a favor and don't be a stranger to this forum...because now you too have something to share with others.

  14. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member


    i ran out simple as though i would have enough on what i had,This sentance alone says to me you are not taking very much notice of what we have all said !!! .
    You thought you would have enough!!!
    You either do have enough or you dont there is no mights or maybes.
    Like i posted before you have a catalysing problem and all comes back to weights and measures . If you have been just guessing at things i cant write what i am thinking !!!

    GO Back to the start
    know the size of the area you working on !!
    For every square mtr you need .6 of a kg of gel coat so work on .8 because you are brushing .
    For every one kg of gel coat you need to mix in 15 ml of catalyst
    the gel time should be close to 40 minutes give or take .
    Any longer and its to do with the type of catalyst you got and or the temprature lets call 20c as a good round figure .
    so what have you been getting for a gel time 1 hour 2 hours 3hours ?? what ??
    I also question the thickness of the gel coat you are brushing on !! Its not paint so dont try and brush it out like paint !!! i would take a guess you been brushing it out thin most newbies do !!!
    if you didnt know there is a thing called a wet film thickness gauge your supplyer will probably have them and you need one . looks like a comb with teeth set at differant deepths and numbers on it . you have to ask what the scale is so you get the right thickness .
    So what else !!, lets get to the second coat of gel as i have said add a little resin to the gell makes it flow better and flatten out . Catalyst 20ml plus !! over never under !! you will never get a prize for going under as you already know and has cost you a small fortune in materials and time and heart ache .
    The first & second gelcoat ,and first layer of glass are very important and its all been writen before the resin need to go off quickly so ?? up the catalyst ratio!! if you normally use 1.25 to 1.5 % go to 2 % or 2.5% use smaller brews and do smaller areas !! but dont lower the catalyst !! its needs to gel in 20 to 30 minutes max so pull you finger out and get moving !!.
    I am only repeating what has been written before more than once i might add .
    This is completely contridicting what you said about traveling and doing things and having adventures . There you were thinking , with all the glassing you been doing you arnt thinking !! not at all !!.
    Take your shoes off and go run throught the fields and stand on a bee or two or jump in a patch or thorns !! Do what ever it takes but wake up get with it !!!
    i have a chinese girfriend is dieing to do glass work and i know she will be good at it because she listens and takes in everything and understands what its all about !! she is 42 years old and had never ventured out side the province she was born in in the north of China . The last one year she has had her eyes opened very wide and we been all over the place , she has never seen the sea has never stood on a beach and felt the water wash around her feet or the sand between her toes . couldnt swin on single stroke but has taken swimming lessons because we are going to nz in January and her wants to swim with the dolphins in the sea .
    Remember Its never to late to learn new things .
    I am 68 years old and every day i learn something new i didnt know before Do i know everything about glass ? No i dont and never will !! because its constantly changing ,but the same problems never go away and are forever with us .
    This weekend we are taking two young friends and spending the weekend in Shanghai ! every time i been there spend hours going in circles so taking 6 hour tours each day . :p
    I dont have friends my age because they all died !!,mostly from bordom and listening to there wives all day long . Retirement is not for me and have no intention of calling it quits ever !!
    I still want to wake board behind my own boat , Its 14 foot long with a 115 vee 4 yamaha and goes like stink but its just my fishing boat !!!:D

  15. Tungsten
    Joined: Nov 2011
    Posts: 468
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    Location: Canada

    Tungsten Senior Member

    You sure are an anel SOB,but i think everyone has learned a little.

    you should try and wake board behind your boat,you'll feel better.

    make sure u get a pic!!
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