boat stuck in mould

Discussion in 'Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building' started by whacker82, May 25, 2012.

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  1. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    Well that seems straightforward allright. I guess there is always the chance they gave you old or spoiled stock, but proving it one way or the other is probably more trouble than it is worth.

    The only thing I can think of for you and all of us, is to make sure you do a test before the full job on the next boat, in case they send you some more typical stuff that sets up like most others have found. Tunnels is used to that kind of QA approach, but us 'low volume' users often forget.
     
  2. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    What is the sander you got ?? :?:
    those little palm sanders are great ,the pad is about 100mm x100mm and the makita has variable speed control :D
    Have you asked the prices of bigger quantities of gel coat ,flow coat ,and catalyst ?? small packets of stuff is a hell of a price normally compared to the Catalyst i usually buy in the bigger container and its lasts ok as long as you keep it cool , dark place ,6 months no problems . gelcoats also will keep quite a long time just each time you use some make sure you completely stir the tin with a electric drill and a paint stirer . Resins i always use 20 litre pails and give them a goo shake each time i take any out the company i get my stuff from will sell 20 litre at the bulk rate and that makes a differance .
    Acetone same i get from a paint manufacture its much cheaper .
    Did you ever try to make contact with the companies i gave you the names of ?? I know thwy are at the other end of the country !
    Good luck and keep at it . masking tape wrapped round your finges helps with skin repair ir old rubber gloves and cut the fingers off and use them to stop wearing your skin away !!. Here the company gets just the fingers they look like condoms for dwarfs maybe they are just chinese size ! the girls like foriegn men that i do know !!:eek:
     
  3. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 146
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 33
    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    its only a one speed orbital sander, i bought it on a whim.
    thanks tunnels but ill stick to the suppliers im with, there are the cheapest in ireland by a long shot.
    ill go back to the flow coat once again as i forgot to say that when it never cured at 20degrees i had about a quarter of a tin left so i was able to apply the flow coat that was left in the tin and cover half the boat and this is when i turned on the heater to 32 odd degrees and it hardened.
    only thing i can come to when people are saying they mixed it in the winter is that they were using a different brand, which was able to harden in such cold conditions. mine nope, proof is in the pudding.:p
     
  4. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    now all sanded, compounded, and one layer of honey comb wax

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  5. hardguy007
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 28
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    Location: Ballymoney

    hardguy007 Junior Member

    No, its the same brand from mb fibreglass. Can send a link with dates and photos. Only difference was i was using gelcoat and adding wax to make the flowcoat. Anywho least you've got it sorted now and u should have a nice clean mould when it's done. A lot of people wouldnt have stuck at it.
     
  6. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    what do you all think ??

    The only differance with winter and summer blends of products is the promoter thas used , the summer blend has less and winter more . i have purposely been evaiding this thing of mentioning cobalt !! the slow brews and not curing thing could be speed up and some of these problems would go away but its a touchy subject and could add more confussion . what do you think people ?? :confused:
     
  7. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
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    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    Leave it alone. I've new questions tomorrow regarding the mould build
     
  8. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    ok Its solves one lot of problems and creates heap of others !!

    Mould build ! will do a complete step by step but first you need a flange around the top of your mould a munimum of 50mm wide and up to 80 mm wide . This will give the top edge of your mould a good stiff edge and make the mould hold its shape better over time and give it protection plus can hold the edge of the hull secure while you are laying up the boat !!!
    will do some drawings and pictures for you when i get to work this morning !! :D
     
  9. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

     

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  10. macka17
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 2
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    Location: Queensland Australia

    macka17 macka17

    Hi.

    All boats can stick in moulds Occasionally.
    Yrs ago in my working days. Crane operator was one of my jobs. mobile.
    One company I used to go to regularly. was a well known Fibreglass Yacht maker. (Binks) Mainly 25 and 30 ft hulls.

    I was a regular visitor there. To lift a hull out of the mould
    Occasionally they stuck.
    Just pick whole thing up. Coupla good shakes, or free fall it a ft then hit hook brake.
    Coupla drops, and it normally popped off.
    So even the Pro's have problems at times.
    They said you could never put enuff release agent on there..
    But Mainly make sure that all hull angles are with gravity release angles . Not binding.
    I've seen some beautiful Custom hull moulds too Mainly timber. Destroyed.
    To release hull. One offs. Some of them would make you cry. Almost..

    Macka
     
  11. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Building a mould is just the same as building the hull inside the mould just a few little things to add to what you would normally do .

    Ok you have you plug all nicely polished and the flange fitted to the top edge . Flange is to help stop the mould from changing shape over time its also a place used for lots other things as well . The corner wants to have vertually no round if possible .

    Ok so how many coats of wax ?? minimum should be 6 to 8 !!, once in the morning !!, once in the afternoon so theres plenty of time for gasing off etc etc Because its a clinker i would pva the plug totally from end to end and double round the flange !!
    You will be hand brushing your gel coat ?
    Some where a ways back i wrote a whole page of stuff about brushing gel coat !! same thing applys so just read and read again .
    I would also second coat over the top !!!, but tint the second coat a slightly differant colour!! Its easy to see where you have done and dare i say it if you have to do any sanding at any time in the future theres a colour signal to tell you ,you have gone through the first coat .
    Also for the second coat the catalyst need to be higher than the first . You know what the gel time is dont you !!!
    To make the whole job go quicker mix a little laminating resin in with the second gel and mix well and apply with a paint roller ,its quick ,its easy and makes a good job thats smoother and not so many thick and thin places like brush marks !!!.
    Never mix new brews in the old pot always mix it in another pot and place the old pots close to a door and keep a eye on them !! when gel time has come and gone check the pots and see is 100% of the mix inside the pot has gone hard . if the left over gel inside the pots dosent break out completely clean and theres still sticky uncatalysed gel here and there in places you didnt mix it properly .
    Me i use a small paint stirer in a variable speed cordless drill !!, you not making milk shakes and its not whipped cream so stir it gently and slow the drill down as you lift it out and wash it straight away dont leave it to go hard !!!.
    The first skin of glass If you want you can also use tissue and when it hard the 300 csm over the top . Me i do them both at the same time tissue and 300 csm together and make them both wet . make sure theres no bubbles at all any where so take you time and do the best job possible !! and if need be use a flash light and check every square inch looking for bubbles even little ones !!
    The layers from this point are completely up to you and depends how thick you want your mould to be . For a small mould like you got 8 layers of 450 csm should be ample dont spare the resin as you are doing it !!. Or you could use 3 layers of 450 csm plus a 3mm core matt do the core matt will save resin and make you mould stiffer and just finish with 1 x 450 csm oner the top but do it at the same time as you lay the corematt . Laying glass over the core mate at the same time makes sure the core matt is completely wet out !!. No its not blotting paper and for a given thickness will use a lot less resin that the solid glass !!
    The resin catalyst ratio needs to be constant through out the build and do a couple of layers of 450 csm p matt and leave for a couple of hours to harden and warm and cool out completely and then another couple and carry on till its finished to the thickness you want .
    So you have on all you glass and what ever !!
    Now is the time to do a gental bake and cook !!.
    Be gental and dont blow heat directly at the mould and get the temprature up to 30 c plus and hold it there for a couple or 3 hours and then let it coolout over night !!!.
    Its about this time you need to take a tranquilized or two with you morning coffee smile to yourself and take a change of undies in your pocket when you unlock your shed door !! .
    Today is the day of the rest of you life !!
    Today you will be a new father !!!
    Time to release !! You can cut and grind the very edge of the flange then remove the flange and gently release round the whole of the top of the hull with a wooden wedge and bump it down between with you hand !!!Remember never hit the mould with anything !!! not a thing . If all those coats of wax and the wiped on release agent have done there work then simply wedge the transom open aways and a bucket of water poured down between the transom and the mould and you should very quickly have lift out !
    Time to break out the coldies and sit and marvel at the wonders of man .
    Of course you can do it !!

    I have not mentioned using a water injection point because it shouldnt need one ever . The simple action of a twist of the mould and it will release every where every time !! and after a couple of boats wont even need water just twist and roll the mould upside down and and the boat should drop out on the lawn !
    Wax coat every time you make a boat and never forget to do it !!
    The flange on the mould you can rond and make a fibreglass gunwhale and use the join to fit a clip over join fender strip later of you wanted .

    Here are some pictures of flanges we have !!,some are up to 120mm wide !! its a bit of over kill but the moulds have never changed shape in over 15 years or so !!

    You do understand the differance between E matt csm and P matt csm ??
    Always use P matt its softer and wets out much better, quicker, and more completely there for can be a percentage stronger !!
     

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  12. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 146
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 33
    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    just about answered all of my questions, i did read somewhere about applying tooling gel, not (gel coat) that when applying it not to leave it cure completly for making moulds, any one heard of this too?
    first layer of tooling gel with a brush and second mixed with white polyester resin using a roller i like this idea.
    how long do ye think i should leave the tooling gel before applying the second layer of tooling gel and then how long before applying my first layer of glass?
     
  13. whacker82
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 146
    Likes: 2, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 33
    Location: ireland

    whacker82 Senior Member

    by the end of today ill have 3 layers of wax, by the end of tomorrow it will be 5, i used mutton cloth for applying the wax, after each layer the cloth is dumped and new cloth for the next layer
     
  14. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Hello
    Mutton cloth !! dont dump it wash it !! collect all the waxed rags and wash them out in soapy water in the washing machine and hang them up and dry them and reuse it over and over again .
     

  15. tunnels

    tunnels Previous Member

    Hello
    Mutton cloth !! dont dump it wash it !! collect all the waxed rags and wash them out in soapy water in the washing machine and hang them up and dry them and reuse it over and over again .
    Tooling gel coat for what you doing is a waste of money and really not worth using !! It is a harder gel coat than the ordinary everyday run of the mill gels . so dont waste your time and money !! but if you have it already then use it . make sure you get a good thickness and dont miss anywhere . if you using a roller for the second coat get it on and make sure everything is totally covered with a good coat!!.
    Make the mould a colour that you would never use to make a boat !!! but be carerful of dark colours !!!

    How do you know when the gel coat is hard enough to put the second coat over ! How did you get this far ?? do it in the afternoon and leave it overnight then you cant get it wrong !!
    When to lay the glass over the second coat !! when you lightly drag a finger over the surface and it dosent leave a mark . Then leave it another couple of hours in your case !! dont try in in only one place do it in 5 or 6 places . thin gel takes longer to go hard , thick goes of quicker !! get my drift !!
    The paint roller need to be a medium length hair so it hold a good about and you get it on .
    So what catalyst ratios you using ??
    what are your tempratures ??
    and the humidity ??
    so what will be your gel time ??? Most gels are completely ok to leave safely for 24 hours before glassing over them .
    The first coat of glass needs to gel in a hour at least ! wet out smaller areas to keep your catalyst ratio up !,after the first resin and glass skin then you can lower the ratio to what ever you normally use .
    i hope you are writting all this down and indexing it all !!
    Whats next on the list ?? :confused:
     
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