Boat Capsize Evidence

Discussion in 'Stability' started by Sachi, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The only thing appalling is the level of your stupidity. So, Mr. yacht designer, why do the vast majority of pleasure craft and commercial craft (tankers, freighters, too) all have this bow feature? All of us, well of course you are the exception, design these inferior yachts and ships this way and we can easily justify the logic used in their shapes, but you yet have to suggest have you a grasp of these principles. All you're capable of doing is blabbering about what you think you might know. You can't quantify you arguments in any reasonable fashion, especially in light of the fact that a Whaler 18 can dive just like a BayLiner Capri 18. You're being an idiot for the sake of being an idiot and I'm going to enjoy pointing this out to everyone as long as you continue to do so.

    The only way out of this is for you to offer a reasonable understanding of why 95% of bows are shaped so poorly and unsafely (your thoughts not ours). Do you think that we'll all nuts and just design bow and entry shapes to suit a common whim?
  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    At least I could avoid contact with idiots as you! For 9 happy years......:D
  3. SamSam
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    SamSam Senior Member

    Please. 'Stupid' and 'idiot' are so overused and tacky. 'Dolt' and 'retard' are always refreshing, and smack of class. :)
  4. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

  5. Loveofsea
    Joined: Jan 2007
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    Loveofsea New Member

    You are overly defensive on this issue as indicated by your continual personal insults and name calling. You obviously errored in your initial response and you're simply not big enough to admit it.

    Have any of you ever accomplished anything in your lives that wasn't associated with a larger entity than yourselves. Traveling around the world 3 times is great, but unless you did it solo you just tagged along or needed others to tag along with you.... You were only another cog in a wheel larger than yourself.

    I suspect that one of the main differences between us is that i have managed all of my years on the water from a position of complete and utter self-sufficiency--no crew, no entaurage, nothing but me and the boat i built.

    take last thursday for instance- i left my house at the leasurely hour of 11:30AM (How presumptious of me!) and made the 78NM run to my favorite cove. The first 5NM were beautiful, but the last 70NM were socked in fog. I got to the Island of the Blue Dolphins four and a half hours later, anchoring in that cove. I never even saw the island until late at night when the fog moved out. I spent three nights at that God-forsaken, wind swept island.

    I went there for one thing, to swim in blissful desolation under the kelp canopy :). I have been focusing my photography on shallow water rockfish species since they are all but extinct along the coast. I saw a few mature individuals, but nothing exceptional. There were three huge elephant seals staging in the kelp before i made this particular dive--by the time i got suited up, they were gone--bummer. I really wanted to get a good pic of an elephant underwater. I did manage to get some quality video of a couple elephants on the surface. That's how it goes--huge effort and, sometimes little to show for it. i guess that is why we keep coming back...

    140 trips, 230 nights at that place we effectionaltely call Jurassic Park, AKA San Nicolas Island...

    Gentlemen, may your bows always stay above the surface! (transoms too!)


    "My personal life is far too rewarding to piss it away on a career!" (quote me :) )
  6. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    With all due respect, that's the biggest load of malarkey I've read in a long time. It's something I would have expected out of my son when he was a high school junior, and had just discovered Nietzsche.

    As long as you insist on being a solo act and pretending you aren't really a part of society, you're extremely limited in what you can do and how far you can go with it.

    For example, if you want to define yourself strictly by your ability to jam by yourself on a trumpet or a sax, be my guest. But you're never going to play a symphony; that takes an orchestra. And it's childish to sneer at the members of that orchestra because they know how to play together, and can create music you couldn't possibly play alone.

    It's nice you built your own little boat and know how to run it, son. But if you sprain your arm while you're patting yourself on the back like that, it's going to make it hard to cast off and tie up one-handed.

    I'll tell you what: when you've done everything Par has done, but managed to do it solo with no one else lifting a finger or spending a dime or giving you an ounce of moral support or teaching you anything, come on back and we'll talk about whether you're Superman.
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yet another wasted post Loveofsea. Where you again fail to tell us why the bow type you feel is fundamentally bad, yet is employed by 95% of the current crop of yachts and commercial craft on the market today or in the last few decades. When will you cough up the expansion describing how all (well not all, just 95%) of the bow shapes used can't be quantified by the gross majority of NA's around the world? You will not get off the hook, until you qualify these statements and ridiculous insistence that you're above all else, having found the only answer.

    Let's make it easy for you, how about some resistance and damage studies that show why you're correct and everyone else is wrong. Of course this does open the door for many previous studies, particularly those done by the US Navy, that show why the current crop of bow is in favor, but hay, you're the only one in step here so, please show us. We're waiting to be enlightened. In your corner you do have the results used on the Nimitz class, but I'll bet you don't know why they elected to use this shape, which has a little to do with maximizing deck space for aircraft.
  8. souljour2000
    Joined: Aug 2009
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    souljour2000 Senior Member

    I'm amazed that this gentleman has managed to stay alive having made that many trips out that far...usually success in the marine environment and arrogance don't least not for long..he is probably a competent diver but may have even better judgment concerning local so-cal weather...I do suspect he's also had a fair bit of luck which he should not count on holding out forever... There is a lesson here we all can draw from : Don't try to transfer success experienced in one specific corner of life...onto another discipline...such as naval architecture...
    Building one boat does not a naval architect make.... No matter how many gloriously ego-inflating..."National Geographic" moments he may have attained by himself in his little corner of the Pacific...the gentleman has by a warped form of transference confused his apparently great success as a local mariner/photographer with mastery of all fields relating to marine endeavor....he knows his mistake by now but his ego will probably never allow him to admit it in here...meanwhile the rest of us are fools to wait around for him to...
  9. apex1

    apex1 Guest


    I have some doubts about that.;) .....just some
  10. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    The bow will always dig into water if you push to hard forward on the Yoke.
  11. Loveofsea
    Joined: Jan 2007
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    Loveofsea New Member

    You tough guys need to get out on the water more often--seriously :mad:

    Building a boat was only a means to an end for me. I wanted to run the seas on my own terms and no commercial hull fit my needs, so what is a man to do :) I don't claim to be a boat designer even though i designed and built, arguably one of the most successful skiffs of all time :cool:

    I don't have to know anything about bows to know that when one dives below the surface it is the ultimate evidence of a poor design. The truth is people who use those types of boats are never too far from help which is a good thing. They are mainly used on lakes and rivers--Other than my innate concern for my fellow man, i have absolutely no interest in the type of boat people choose to use. It's just a shame that the industry puts out boats that are that inherently dangerous.

    Troy, i have never claimed to have done what PAR has done. No one has ever given me a dime--i learned how to run these seas on my own. My wife of 26 years gives me all of the moral support that i need :)

    Souljour, talk about National Geographic moments, i have been taking videos of all of my trips since '95. I have racked up some 40 hours of video -whales, sharks, sunsets, gales, fish, pinipeds, you name it!~ Someday i am going to put together my own documentary-- a one man underwater photographic expedition from a home made boat :D BTW, i have been watching the offshore weather here in So Cal literally around the clock since 1985. I can tell you what the wind is doing anywhere in the bight 24/7 ;) I have been caught in severy weather on only 3 occasions since i started boating.

    Here is a story about a trip i took way back in '91. I posted it here a few years ago, i hope you gentlemen enjoy it.


    Late fall in 91, I anchored off the quarry at the East end of Catalina for the night. This is a tricky anchorage because you have to set up right on a small plateau situated on a steep slope. Night fell as a typical fall evening, still and quiet. Around midnight I noticed telltale flashes of lightening on the distant southern horizon. I listened to the radio and there was no mention of imminent weather, so I fell back to sleep. Somewhere around 4 am I was awoken by a very sharp swell. I could still see the lightening but could hear no thunder, the sky was clear and the wind was calm. I was coming off of a 2 day trip and was to head home later in the morning anyway, so I stowed the gear and headed back across the channel.

    Just after sun up and about 7 miles off the island I felt the first blast of wind at my back as the cusp of the wind and seas over took the skiff. Within minutes I find myself surfing down 6-8ft seas with a 40 or 50kt southeasterly wind at my back. Severe following seas are to be avoided if at all possible, so I turn the good skiff around to make my way back to the island for shelter. The good skiff has a tiller so there is no console to protect from the wind and spray. Every time the bow touches, spray would explode over the boat. Within minutes my cloths are saturated and I am wet to the skin, standing in 3 or 4 inches of sloshing water. The wind driven spray was so intense that I couldn't breath from my nose and my eyes and face stung too much to even look in the direction that I was to head. The sky was clear and I was able to get an occasional glimpse of the silhouette of the island which helped greatly with the navigation.

    As I pressed on it was getting increasingly difficult to hold the tiller and articulate the throttle which was critical to controlling the boat in the these conditions. I was shaking uncontrollably form the onset of mild hypothermia and had to get out of the wet clothing. I knew that when I let go of the tiller the bow would swing from the wind; but how would she take the seas from the transom? I had no choice but to find out. I shifted the engine into neutral and turned off the ignition. The transom went straight into the seas and she up and over'ed each swell with no problem. I switched on the bilge pump and frantically bailed with the bucket for a few minutes. After most of the water was out of the boat, i took off the wet clothes and put on the wetsuit. Better! I start the engine and proceed but I am still blinded by the spray. I stop once again and put on the mask and snorkel. Much better! I have a 2,000 gph bilge pump to protect the nights at anchor, but when underway the water rushes to the back of the boat and is unavailable to the pump. I make note of it as I press on.

    Suddenly a Coast Guard helicopter appears and hovers directly above, diver in full regalia standing in the door. I was very relieved to see them! I know that this sneaky ******* easterly had caught everyone by surprise. I quickly give him the semaphore signal for 'all is OK.' Luckily for me, it was the only one I knew. He waves in acknowledgment and they quickly moved off. The body is much warmer with the wetsuit on so I focus on avoiding the cresting portion of the waves ahead. The routine is established and I am maintaining fine now. Power up the face, cut the throttle just as the bow reaches the peak so it gently 'drops' down the back of the wave, power thru the trough and up the next face, wave after wave. A large commercial vessel that I had seen earlier on the horizon graciously comes over to check on me. I pat my heart and wave to them, they wave back and move on.

    I relish the intensity of this moment! It is a rare occasion when the seas grant you such a splendid ordeal of mind and senses. When the wind blows, it shrinks your world, draws you into yourself. Another chance encounter between man and soul. This day we meet again under crystal clear skies and roaring seas! Hello old friend, how you comfort me... But this won't last, I know that later I will be safely at home and this moment will be irretrievable, but for the memory. I look at these hands for a long moment, then I press on.

    As I make slow and steady progress toward the island, I see baitfish everywhere. The boat scares them out of the water and the wind is so strong that it rolls them across the surface before they disappear. That is very amusing for some reason. Three and a half hours and 7 miles later, I reach Avalon. I see a number of people along the jetty and the dock up ahead. I wave to them as I enter the harbor. Big lump in my throat as I see many caring arms wave back. The Harbor Patrol boat edges out to meet me and asks if everything is OK. I tell him that I am fine and he directs me to a buoy. Somewhat embarrassed, I have to ask how to tie up. I change into dry cloths, tend to the boat and nap for a couple of hours.

    When I awake, the event is over and the winds are calm. I make the run back across the channel. Later that night as I sit in the living room, cat purring in my lap and a cup of fine rum in hand, I am maudlin. For a few precious hours there was a respite from the mundane comforts and trivialities of day to day existence. Life was rich! Full of the reality and bigness that connects your heart and soul straight to the earth we live on. Fate granted yet another opportunity to live and dwell in the realm of stark survival on the beautiful ocean that I love so much. There is nothing like the feeling of utter security on a tumultuous sea ... and until the next time, I will miss it so.
  12. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Once again, another post, lots of fluff, but nothing, zip, nada lick of expertise or data to suggest why his ideas of a bow, which fly in the face of everyone else's are better.

    Your like the conspiracy theorists that when pressed for real answers just offer up the "deer in the head lights" look and hope you don't notice they really don't know or understand the situation they're questioning.

    No one other then you and those that care about you give a damn about your personal stories of sea conquests. These are little more then artificial chest pumps, in a self induced attempt at forum CPR.

    Look you haven't a clue why the types of bows that dominate 95% of all boats, power, sail pleasure and commercial are employed, so just admit you're limitations and move on.

    Suggesting that the likes of Herreshoff, S&S, Owens and all the other greats, not to mention all the less then famous, who none the less have major contributions all, with very few exceptions, have designed bows like the ones you describe as inherently unsafe.

    Why, Loveofsea are we all wrong and you are right? What level of arrogance would have us think that you and you alone, are the keeper of the secrets of a good bow.

    Stop beating around the bush and offering up self love songs about previous exploits and answer the very simple questions. For the sake of mysteriously diving bows everywhere, tells us, save man kind from the likes of the evil doer NA's of the world.
  13. Tim B
    Joined: Jan 2003
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    Tim B Senior Member

    Very interesting story. 6 to 8 ft waves in a 40 footer might be uncomfortable, but I have seen just as bad during Cowes week a few years ago in a similar sized boat, and I'll bet at much shorter wavelength (which is very important in these matters). We did ship a respectable amount of water over the bow when heading into seas, and there was nothing wrong with that boat! It was doing exactly what it was designed to.

    When you approach what you think is a design flaw, you have to try to work out why the designer made that decision. Particularly with hull design, there will have been a concious decision for at least the following on power and modern sailing boats:

    bow rake
    amount of rocker
    the aft-run properties
    chine position
    amount of forefoot
    amount of flare
    angle of entrance
    deadrise fore/mid/aft (section shape for yachts)

    So with a small cruiser or a fishing boat, it's quite legitimate to have lots of bouyancy at the ends, as it lends itself to a drier boat which "rides" the waves fairly well. What it doesn't do is go fast. Conversely, a deep V powerboat hull goes fast very well, but is uncomfortable in a seaway. This can be improved by using variable deadrise, but it will never be pleasant. However, the deep V poses another issue, of manouevring at speed. In this case too much forefoot will detract from the capability to turn tightly at speed, so if this is a requirement, the seakeeping will be comprimised (this may be quite reasonble).

    Yachts are an interesting case, as the trend has been generally similar to powerboats over the last 50 years or so. Designers have generally moved away from short fat hulls with lots of bow rake, to longer hulls with more vertical bows and more U-shaped sections. The newer yachts are more easily powered, and can carry more sail, particularly off-wind. More interestingly, there has been a massive shift in sea-keeping, particularly in racing yachts, to going through waves rather than over them, as going through waves is faster and more comfortable, if slightly wetter.

    Most importantly, there is ALWAYS a reason for something to happen (see Newton's first law). It may not always be obvious, but it is there, and you may need deeper understanding to recognise it. Very few hulls which make large-volume production are not well suited to what they do.

    Hope this clarifies a few ares.

    Tim B.
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If any lives have been lost or any people injured, I'm the one that could be held for negligent homicide or depraved indifference, if it's shown that one of my bows contributed to the event. I'm the one up on charges, not boneheads that can't justify their statements

    Just as I mentioned in a recent PM, there's a reason you can be punished if you yell "FIRE" in a movie theater when there isn't a fire. You can't qualify it with an "in my opinion" once the cat is out of the bag, you're either right or your mistaken. Peoples lives and careers paths are in jeopardy, not to mention jail time.

    I consider this whole line of debate by Loveofsea dangerous and libelous to some degree. I demand an explanation, data or testing to corroborate the accusations immediately.
    1 person likes this.

  15. troy2000
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    troy2000 Senior Member

    The only explanation, data or testing you're going to get from Loveofsea is, "I built my own boat and it hasn't sunk yet. That means I know more than all the professional designers and NA's in the world, past and present.":)
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