Blue Water micro-cruiser tri's?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by scotdomergue, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. scotdomergue
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 111
    Likes: 3, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 45
    Location: Twisp, WA USA

    scotdomergue Scot

    Are there any small tri's (20 feet LOA? maybe up to 24 feet) that are viable blue-water, go anywhere micro-cruisers? Of course we're talking very minimalist, light on everything cruising.
     
  2. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,194
    Likes: 25, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    Hi, Scott,

    I would say no -but of course it depends on how crazy you want to get. Today, in the US and maybe Europe there are no tris under 24' that can legally claim blue water capability without getting sued out of existence. Brown and Searunner 24s likely have the most open ocean miles. I recall another guy -I want to say Horstman, that had a line of cruising Tris that went down to 24'.

    D. Newick designed some fairly small ocean crossers for race not cruise -but why else would you cross in such a small tri?

    If you want basic insights to what an ocean crossing tri needs read about Eric Tabarly and later Chris White.
     
  3. catsketcher
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 1,209
    Likes: 91, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 790
    Location: Australia

    catsketcher Senior Member

    Gday Scot

    The consensus seems to be that you need to get pretty big to be safe. Piver Nimbles (30ft), Searunner 31s and Farrier F9As have all done major ocean crossings. The Atlantic was crossed in an F27 but the designer didn't recommend anyone else repeat that.

    It comes down to two things - the square cube rule and roll moment of inertia. A 20ft tri has about 16 times less stability than a 40ft tri. This is because stability is a function of weight and beam. The weight of a larger tri is more because it is 2 times the length, 2 times the beam and 2 times the depth. 2x2x2=8. 8 times heavier. Stability is weight x beam = 8 times x 2 times = 16.

    Monos have the same problem so the little ones get knocked flat but they come back up again so multi designers have shied away from small go anywhere cruisers.

    Roll moment - if you get a 4 metres pole and put two 5 litre water jugs at the end it will be hard to swing around. It has higher roll moment of inertia. Put the jugs in the middle and do it again. The inertia is much lower. Tris have a lower roll moment of inertia. Good for responsiveness and tacking but bad for resisting breaking waves. So they are easier to roll in breaking wave conditions than an equivalent cat especially with the smaller hull creating more drag if it is heavily immersed.

    So there are not lots of modern designs for small ocean crossing tris. Rory McDougall sailed the world on Cooking Fat - a tiny Wharram. They seem to get around some of the physics by being very low.

    https://www.wharram.com/site/catalog/building-plans/coastal-trek-designs/tiki21

    cheers

    Phil
     
  4. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
    Posts: 2,164
    Likes: 52, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 575
    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    I would cross any ocean in a properly configure 26 foot monohull with a proper keel. Tris and Cats have to be much bigger to stand a chance. Think of it this way, do you want to cross the ocean in a light boat. There is a certain amount of stability needed and this means mass. I know many will disagree but trust me you want something under you.
     
  5. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,086
    Likes: 40, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    Piver Nugget.
     
  6. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 1,807
    Likes: 57, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 608
    Location: Duluth, Minnesota

    Steve W Senior Member

    Actually yes, Bernard Rhodes designed, built and then sailed the 23ft Kliss from the UK to New Zealand back in the late 1960s or early 1970s. I would say that qualifies as ocean cruising. He then designed and built an updated version with foil stabilizing boards in the amas and was selling plans but this was a long time ago. A well proven design. A lot of the older tri designs were very seaworthy compared to todays production boats mainly because they were designed with much smaller ( safer) sail plans. Todays boats for some reason place more emphasis on speed. The same can be said of cats, all the small production cats are designed for speed as I assume that is the market and yet a conservatively rigged Wharram Tiki 21 has circumnavigated and raced across the Atlantic.
     
  7. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,086
    Likes: 40, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    The 25' Nicol Clipper had a good distance record. One capsized after overloading but that is the key to small sizes, you have to stop for provisions more often. You can't take it all with you.
     
  8. outside the box

    outside the box Previous Member

    Kliss III for sale to get an idea of what it might have been like to do the trip.
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/multihull/auction-1046682605.htm

     
  9. olsurfer
    Joined: Mar 2015
    Posts: 16
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: N. Cal

    olsurfer Junior Member

    Holy guacamole that's nuckin futs! And I'm too chicken to zoom out to the Farallons. That guy had WAY bigger stones than me.
     
  10. redreuben
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 1,672
    Likes: 69, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 349
    Location: Beaconsfield Western Australia

    redreuben redreuben

    You might also want to check out Jones boats for books and plans that have done ocean voyages, he started with a Wharram and then designed his own boats.
     
  11. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 1,807
    Likes: 57, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 608
    Location: Duluth, Minnesota

    Steve W Senior Member

    While most people these days would not go cruising without a much bigger boat loaded down with every gizmo under the sun folks were out there doing it in very simple small boats half a century ago. Kliss is certainly very small and homey by todays standards but imho fits the OPs requirements perfectly. Bernhard Rhodes was/is a very good boatbuilder and had the advantage of having designed and built Kliss himself so would have had a lot more confidence in it than someone who just purchased something someone else had built. Also a very good sailor obviously. Too small for me too. I believe Mr Rhodes still lives on Waiheke island so plans may still be available and I'm sure it would be an economic build.
     
  12. scotdomergue
    Joined: Jan 2009
    Posts: 111
    Likes: 3, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 45
    Location: Twisp, WA USA

    scotdomergue Scot

    So, would at least some of you think that an F-24, or perhaps even Farrier's Trailer-Tri 680 would be adequate for crossing an ocean if one had the right set of sails, was conservative on reefing and didn't mind being truly minimalist on space and load carrying capacity?
     
  13. catsketcher
    Joined: Mar 2006
    Posts: 1,209
    Likes: 91, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 790
    Location: Australia

    catsketcher Senior Member

    Why?

    There isn't much point in reducing your safety margin by cruising a Trailertri of F24 offshore. As pointed out by others, voyages have been done by small tris but they are rare. The owner of the 25 ft Clipper that capsized was luckily rescued by a freighter that almost ran him over about 2 hours later. Bernard Rhodes worked out how to re-right Klis and demonstrated his technique by actually flipping her over and used poles and his body weight to pull it back upright.

    Or you could spend abou the same money and do it on a Searunner 31. Plenty of cheap ones in the states. Still demountable and a very seaworthy design. Heaps of stowage, payload and safety in spades compared to a Trailertri. So my verdict - yes you would be nuts to get a small Farrier when a Searunner 31 can do it for the same money.

    cheers

    Phil
     
  14. Steve W
    Joined: Jul 2004
    Posts: 1,807
    Likes: 57, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 608
    Location: Duluth, Minnesota

    Steve W Senior Member

    Phil, are you sure it was kliss that Bernard was able to right? He did design a 16 ft catamaran with center cockpit and aft cabin similar in concept to the Jarcat 5m that he demonstrated righting by himself, (the story was in an old issue of Catamaran Sailor magazine) but I never heard of him righting Kliss, I would like to see how he achieved that.
     

  15. cavalier mk2
    Joined: Mar 2010
    Posts: 2,086
    Likes: 40, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 214
    Location: Pacific NW North America

    cavalier mk2 Senior Member

    I think it was longer for the Clipper rescue. Hedley saved him by having him paint the wing undersides air rescue orange when he found out what he wanted to do with the boat. What he needed was a auto pilot because fatigue did him in. He'd overloaded on free canned food then got in the blow off South Africa. He got tired running off and wound up getting pooped with water entering into the cabin. He finally hauled down the sails to lie ahull without bailing out before he slept. Not really the boats fault but I do agree with Phil.

    The way to compare boat sizes is by weight. Your 6000 pound multi is going to be a bigger platform than that keel boat.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.