Best surface Drive for Marine diesel?

Discussion in 'Surface Drives' started by wiggler4490, Nov 22, 2007.

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  1. brunello
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    Location: italy

    brunello Junior Member


    Rik,

    I am amazed by your attitude towards myself, Victory Design and Flexitab. If you feel that we are infringing any of your rights, or those of the company you are working for, then please do act legally against us.

    On the other hand, should you simply have ever heard from myself, Victory Design or Flexitab a single negative comment on Arneson’s drives, or yourself, please report them to me, so that I can clarify.

    I hope you can understand that similar statements are not only unacceptable, but false. In fact:

    1) Quoted from your text…” with a pair of ASD8 drive units. And a lot less HP. I sold the engines to the Donzi team, so I know what they make….” Rik, even if you had really sold the engines to the OSG Donzi team in 2006, which is at least a misleading statement; even if you really knew the actual horsepower installed by both OSG and King of Shaves, which is in any case quite impossible, as you too very well know. Well, even then, you know that the rules of P1 - and in fact performance boats – are based on power to weight ratio, and for sure the old OSG Donzi was a far heavier boat than the brand new Fountain of 2006, so that the power of the engine alone is a ‘political’ argument, not a valid technical one. Please note: this just to show the technical nonsense of your statement in the context.

    2) Quoted from your text…”… the Flexi drive, used in Powerboat P1 Class on a Donzi, which is a copy of the Arneson by Brunello Acampora's company…” Now it is embarrassing that a professional engineer, as you are, should make this kind of statements. The Flexitab ‘Speed’ drive is not a copy of the Arneson drive. Victory Design and Flexitab have never, to my knowledge, copied Arneson. In fact, given the physical principle of about half prop in the water which is not, as far as I know, exclusive to Arneson, nor to any other semi submerged drive system, and limiting ourselves to fixed pitch propeller drives, there are three main categories of drives a) with fixed propeller and independent rudder (for example, Levi Drives and many others); b) with adjustable trim and independent rudder (for example, Flexitab “Speed” and “Power”); c) with adjustable trim, plus steering accomplished by a complete rotation, p & s, of the drive and a built-in skeg, normally ahead of the prop and integrally connected to the lower face of the thrust tube (Arneson by Twin Disk, but also Sea-Rex and Mini-Rex from ZF, Jolly Drive, SDS, Top System; and in fact also many surface Z drives like Mercury or Weissman). Now, considering that Victory Design and Flexitab have never designed a drive which falls into your category (c) since: we have never designed a drive where the propeller moves sideways; we have never designed a drive with a rudder or skeg connected to the thrust tube; we have never designed a drive with a rudder or skeg ahead of the propeller. Now may I ask, besides thousands of other considerations, how can you state that the Flexidrive Speed as installed on the OSG Donzi in 2006, was a copy of an Arneson? Based perhaps on the outside look of a thrust tube or the shape of a transom thrust unit? Well please then have a look at Sea-Rex and Mini-Rex from ZF, Jolly Drive, SDS, Top System and so forth. Do you have anything personal against Flexitab or myself? Technically and personally speaking, I cannot understand your attitude.

    3) Quoted from your text…” …The tunnels do not move and there is only one rudder…Brunello is marketing the hoop steering on other models but I have yet to see one…” yes correct, the steering hoop was on the Power and Energy line of drives, we made quite a few and yes it was not a Levi hoop. We made several applications and the drives were on display at Genoa, Viareggio and Amsterdam shows. Our new Power drives, tested with success and displayed in Genoa 2008, do not have a movable hoop any more, but a fixed tunnel in similar fashion to the tunnels fitted onto our Speed drive of OSG Donzi, which won in 2006 (fighting hard against a very competitive Kerakoll by FB Design, amongst others). So, what is the point: we do not use Levi nor Arneson propulsion or steering principles. Is this compatible with everybody’s else ego in the SD world?

    4) Quoted from your text…” …The flexi drive is not used on the Victory Racing Team, rather the Victory Racing Team uses an Arneson fixed for trimming only and incorporates a vertically trimable rudder…”. This is a totally misleading statement, since Flexitab has supplied directly and for many years the Victory Team UAE. The driveline you refer to, have been supplied by BPM, not by Arneson, as most Class 1 applications. Flexitab has almost invariably supplied the Victory Team and indeed almost every other single Class 1 team – including the so many times world champion Steve Curtis - with all the other drive system component, including the patented V-Mec trim pistons, the world wide copied VDD single steering system and the exclusive (1990, for your knowledge) composite flexible tunnel centre tab which granted 8 to 9 MPH to many cats. This, besides flush water intakes and too many other components which are outside the scope of this reply. The equipment you speak about was originally installed only onboard one of the two Victory Team boats and always with BPM mechanical drive lines. Could it be done with Arneson’s mechanical components as well? Probably yes since, to my knowledge, Arneson’s are mechanically very good: anyway also BPM machining of that thrust tube from a billet, the heat treatment and machining of the shaft, the custom lengths available and so forth, are very good. But if you are trying to say that Arneson’s philosophy is, and always was, to use a fixed drive, only trimmable and with a rudder aft, well than you are denying the basic principle of an Arneson. This concept (rudder behind), in modern racing times, belongs to Sonny Levi and his Step Drive patent (look at Arcidiavolo, Drago, Dart and so many others, please). Sonny dislikes even trimming the prop up and down, I disagree on that, but this is another story. If you say that Flexitab equipment is not used in the Victory Team UAE drive line, you are simply lying. And another thing: Victory Design is the design company that I founded 20 years ago, so that when you say that a trim cylinder fitted on a Victory Team boat is “not Flexitab but Victory Design”, you might be misleading again: all Flexitab equipment is designed by my design company, i.e. Victory Design, in Italy, not by the UAE Victory Team.

    Finally, I hope you will refrain from further attacking, with straightforward lies, people and companies whose only fault is that of working on the same subject, with perhaps slightly different ideas. Your behaviour does not stand up to Arneson’s solid and respected reputation, built over several efforts. This way, Volvo and Mercruiser will eventually win again the market game and let the other play "powerboat racing".

    Regards,

    Brunello Acampora
     
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  2. masalai
    Joined: Oct 2007
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    Location: cruising, Australia

    masalai masalai

    Thank you Brunello....
     
  3. brunello
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    Location: italy

    brunello Junior Member

    Please supply your full details if you wish to be sued for your false statements.

    Regards,

    Brunello Acampora
    Flexitab srl
     
  4. big-boss
    Joined: Mar 2008
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    Location: Exeter, CA

    big-boss Junior Member

    Lost your mind?

    Brunello Acampora
    Have you lost your mind? Hope the "essay" you wrote makes you feel real good- because it is crap. I also hope you get your wish and stay in court the rest of your "sue me" life. I am an engineer and have a law degree- that is how I stay in the construction business. You did not read the thread nor the comments-you just wanted to get mad. Ya they do all look alike, sorry. I am sure there are enough changes to keep your butt out of court though.
    I have my second set of arnesons- these are going on a 1970 Uniflite Express with two small diesels and Rik has been a prince of a fella with my weird project.
     
  5. brunello
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    Location: italy

    brunello Junior Member

    fed up with false statements!

    “Big Boss”,

    Are you really sure it is us getting mad?
    If there was any crap in my message, I apologise and await for somebody to explain what and why was crap.
    I shall try to explain better. Please, read carefully.
    Flexitab drives cannot be described as a copy of an Arneson, unless one is blind, because: a) they did never-never use prop steering and b) never had a steering fin ahead, forward of the prop – unlike Arneson and many other drives on the market (that, unlike Flexidrive, really do look, very much, like copies of Arnesons). Also, c) we always (not just seldom) used rooster tail control surfaces (shrouded rudders or equivalent means). Our drives, especially the pleasure and commercial ones, have a totally different “prop diameter to length of drive ratio” (they are short and with big diameter props), affecting mechanical issues like gear ratio selection (we tend to turn slower than most other makers) and consequently torque and inner mechanical design of the drive. Do you really think that all these changes, amongst others, are made simply to “… keep one’s butt out of court…”? Do you know our products and can you think that there might be genuine, different ideas? Are you really sure that you and Rik - let alone "Volare"- are not confusing us with somebody else?

    You are rightly upset by the rising tone of the answers, but you are also not quite getting to the point: Flexitab, nor myself, has nothing, and never had anything against Arnesons: infact we think they are a good product and never attacked Arneson nor Rik in any way. Also, we have no reason to believe that he should not be the great fellow that you state. Yes, we may have some different ideas about drive design, but this should not become a personal issue – I believe and try to encourage. This is exactly the reason for us being so surprised and upset about Rik’s misleading statements about myself and Flexitab, within this thread. Anybody can loose his mind for a moment and I do not believe it was us. Please read again carefully who is attacking who, and who is simply and strongly defending a crystal clear company and personal reputation.

    Regards,

    Brunello Acampora
     
  6. big-boss
    Joined: Mar 2008
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    Location: Exeter, CA

    big-boss Junior Member

  7. LostInBoston
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: NJ

    LostInBoston Junior Member

    cost?

    Brunello-
    Would it be possible for you to tell me what the approx price is for a S1000 Flexidrive speed?
    I am a graduate naval architect student and I will be assisting the prof in a junior design class this fall where we will be designing an offshore race boat.
    Thank you
     
  8. brunello
    Joined: Jul 2008
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    Location: italy

    brunello Junior Member

    cost

    I have told Sara at Flexitab's to help you with your request, do give her a call! Regards, Brunello
     
  9. f250
    Joined: Feb 2009
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    Location: belgium

    f250 Junior Member

    jezus why are prices such a secret
     
  10. Alpina
    Joined: Nov 2009
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    Location: Sweden

    Alpina New Member

    IMG_0314a.jpg
    Sorry for lifting an old thread but that boat got me curious, why the shaft and surface drive setup? This boat is all out strange, what's the story behind it?

    Thanks in Advance Rik.

    Love your products!
     
  11. Rik
    Joined: Dec 2007
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    Location: California

    Rik Senior Member

    It is a 110' Ferry. Look closely and you will see two mounting holes for a lifting body to attach to.

    The variable pitch propeller in the center is attached to two (2) MTU 16V2000 engines and the Arnesons each see a single MTU 16V2000 engine

    Slow speeds just use the center propeller, when under way all four engines are running.

    55 Knots
     

  12. PetterM
    Joined: Sep 2004
    Posts: 211
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    Location: Norway

    PetterM Senior Member

    This is a test boat from Navatek in Hawaii.
    Full details and video here:
    http://www.navatekltd.com/hdv.html
    The centre CP propeller system is made by Servogear in Norway www.servogear.no , it had Servogear PTI gearbox (twin in single out). From what I have heard it worked really well with the CPP.


     
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