Best place to build aluminum sailboat

[fallguy]

You cannot build a 44' sailing yacht in 24 months alone.

 

[renleo]

You cannot build a 44' sailing yacht in 24 months alone.

You certainly can't give a proper answer to the question I made.

 

[Rumars]

The problem is its almost impossible to answer your question properly. I can only tell you what I would do if I had the money and reliable building plans.

I would:
Stay in Norway and work. Buy a van and/or 6m flatbed trailer. Make a list of material and tools needed for minimal fitout and assign buying order priorities. Rent a big enough cheap but secure storage unit. It can be somewhere inconvenient since it's not for working inside. Research domestic and foreign prices and start buying. After I have a predetermined critical mass of material, move everything to building location and start assembling.

A few considerations:
First thing is how wide and high the thing is. It makes no sense to save 10k on the building place because it is remote and then pay 11k€ to have the boat launched. Wich is a very realistic scenario since over 3m wide we are talking special transport and the cost only increases from there. Similarly if you don't fit under electric wires, etc.

Second thing is outside labor. I would never build this without a fully cnc cut assembly jig, framing, plating and interior. No backyard casting of ballast, buy it. If you can't afford such things your timeline is fantasy. Same if you don't have a clear plan for all systems and the knowhow to install them.

The building location needs to have: full enclosure with security, heating, adjustable ventilation, electric hoist, preferably the use of a forklift. Noise pollution should not be a problem, metal boatbuilding is loud.

Stay working, use vacation time for initial assembly, weld and grind every evening and weekend. After everything is welded you have insulation, glue work and paint. Then move the boat to a cheaper storage area since you are now weather tight. Begin the fit out process to desired standard. For woodwork and other things I would rent space for a small workshop and bring prefabricated parts to the boat.

Either you can plan this to a degree that you can execute it in Norway, or you can't do it in time and budget regardless where you are. I won't even mention abilities, when you start building there should be no question in your mind about how to do it. If you wonder what the correct setting is on the welder, how to install a fitting or crimp a wire you have to do it beforehand. No quick watching a video on your phone while on the job, that's the loosing way.

If you are still wondering about EU destinations I already answered that. Depends on your language abilities and "cheapness" expectations, but no country I mentioned will allow you a total monthly budget under 1000€ unless you are really lucky or locally connected.

 

[fallguy]

You certainly can't give a proper answer to the question I made.

I built this boat in 60 months and about 12,000 labor hours. Just trying to help you grasp realities. This is a 32' cat. Most professional yards would not commit to that time of 24 months for you, too many variables on labor. Despite your snark, I wish you success. If you have two years to build it and must build it away from Norway, I'm only trying to help you understand the 24 month time budget is probably inaccurate. Things as simple as placing large plates are not really one man jobs. I think, in general terms, I would get the hulls done (anywhere) and then finish her where you can spend 24 months fitting out.

This build was in Minnesota, fiberglass and slower than ally, but once the boat was too big for inside; she had to go out into the unheated space and this adds time to the build as Rumars warns.

I had no overhead crane, just a small gantry that could pick 1500 pounds. You will have trouble lifting large masses in the early parts of the build if you think you don't need, etc.

I would love to hear from any builders who built a 44' sailing vessel in under 8000 hours.

Somewhere here, we have seen a formula for hours based on length, depth, beam, but I don't recall it atm.

 

[renleo]

3. If you ever decide to take up residence in the EU you are eligible for VAT exemption on your entire household, this includes vehicles like your boat. When you do this you also change flag to a EU country. Some jurisdictions will require a CE conformity declaration for this, some don't (it's complicated), but you need it for legal reasons if you ever want sell the boat. It's still cheaper then VAT tough.

This is one of the best hints I've got so far. It really simplifies my question about the import costs, it is very well explained in the following link:

Customs duty & VAT › ADAC Skipper-Portal https://skipper.adac.de/en/customs-duty-vat/

In a few words, if the boat is built in a cheap 3rd country, after 1 year having residence outside the EU, it can be imported without paying import duties, as part of the household.

This info is also in the following doc:
COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 1186/2009 of 16 November 2009 setting up a Community system of reliefs from customs duty, Official Journal of the European Union:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:324:0023:0057:EN:PDF

Article 2:
"(c) ‘personal property’ means any property intended for the personal use of the persons concerned or for meeting their household needs. The following, in particular, shall constitute ‘personal property’: (i) household effects; (ii) cycles and motor cycles, private motor vehicles and their trailers, camping caravans, pleasure craft and private aeroplanes."

TITLE II
RELIEF FROM IMPORT DUTY CHAPTER I
"Personal property belonging to natural persons transferring their normal place of residence from a third country to the Community"

Article 4:
"The relief shall be limited to personal property which: (a) ... has been in the possession of and, in the case of non-consumable goods, used by the person concerned at his former normal place of residence for a minimum of six months before the date on which he ceases to have his normal place of residence in the third country of departure;"

Article 5
"1. Relief may be granted only to persons whose normal place of residence has been outside the customs territory of the Community for a continuous period of at least 12 months"


Unfortunately, it's harder for the case of Norway:

Import of recreational boats - Norwegian Customs https://www.toll.no/en/goods/boat/import-of-recreational-boats/#:~:text=If%20you%2C%20as%20a%20private,pay%2025%20%25%20VAT%20on%20them.

Moving to Norway
You may bring you recreational boat to Norway without paying duties if the following conditions are met:

• You must have resided abroad continuously for at least five years immediately prior to arrival.
• The boat may not be larger than 15 meters in length.
• You must have owned the boat for at least 12 months before arrival and used it abroad for the same period of time.
• You must bring the boat to Norway within one year after arrival at the latest.
• You must remain in possession of the boat for at least two years following customs clearance before it can be sold or transferred.

 

[renleo]

I built this boat in 60 months and about 12,000 labor hours. Just trying to help you grasp realities. This is a 32' cat. Most professional yards would not commit to that time of 24 months for you, too many variables on labor. Despite your snark, I wish you success. If you have two years to build it and must build it away from Norway, I'm only trying to help you understand the 24 month time budget is probably inaccurate. Things as simple as placing large plates are not really one man jobs. I think, in general terms, I would get the hulls done (anywhere) and then finish her where you can spend 24 months fitting out.

This build was in Minnesota, fiberglass and slower than ally, but once the boat was too big for inside; she had to go out into the unheated space and this adds time to the build as Rumars warns.

I had no overhead crane, just a small gantry that could pick 1500 pounds. You will have trouble lifting large masses in the early parts of the build if you think you don't need, etc.

I would love to hear from any builders who built a 44' sailing vessel in under 8000 hours.

Somewhere here, we have seen a formula for hours based on length, depth, beam, but I don't recall it atm.
View attachment 180810View attachment 180811

As I said, not answering my question about "WHERE", and instead giving lots of advices about the "HOW" based on endless assumptions.
In the other hand, very nice of you sharing effort figures and pictures of the progress of your project, it's always useful to everyone wondering about a homemade sailboat construction, and very enjoyable to see the details of the arrangements.
Amazing work you have done, it looks very professional. Mine is a much simpler monohull.

 

[Rumars]

If you build in the EU the norvegian tax relief conditions are not that problematic. You will become an EU resident anyway by default of living there, so we have 2 years building time, 1 year shakedown cruise and further boat improvement, wich leaves you with 2 years to meet the 5 year requirement. You can either spend them cruising or working somewhere in the EU.

Further analysis of "WHERE" is only possible with hard numbers. Absolute minimum workshop space for your build is 100sqm (not comfortable and you need additional storage elsewhere), so how much does this cost in Norway? If you want to build full time add living space for yourself, food, transportation, etc.
My minimum estimation for full time EU living is 1000-1500€/month and this implies a long research with many on site visits to find a suitable place.

 

[comfisherman]

I guess the big question is how good are you at welding aluminum? The downside of alloy hulls is you start with bulkheads and then work on the hullbplating. I.e. the most important welds of the project are first. From router cut panels to a boat shape can be rather quick, shockingly so with proper design. After that becomes the question of how much bead can you cut an hr. To give you a perspective the aluminum outfit I worked at years ago we could tack together a 32 ft hull in 3 days it looked like a boat. Then two really skilled welders took 3 weeks to finish the bead.

Will you have full time to dedicate to the project? Or will this be a nights and weekends sort of thing?

Having averaged anywhere from 2-5000 lbds of aluminum purchased a year (barely enough to keep my commercial account active) its a world wide commodity and local prices are as much dictated by policy out of local control. It's come down in the last few months but is still near double 2019. All that to say price savings in alloy will be easily offset with other cost.

The bigger question is where do you want to live the next couple of years? Building a 44 footer from scratch even with a lot of trade knowledge is a big undertaking. Probably a success rate under 10% on completion, I'd Hazzard on time and umder budget .01%. So find a place you want to live and go from there.

 

[renleo]

I guess the big question is how good are you at welding aluminum? The downside of alloy hulls is you start with bulkheads and then work on the hullbplating. I.e. the most important welds of the project are first. From router cut panels to a boat shape can be rather quick, shockingly so with proper design. After that becomes the question of how much bead can you cut an hr. To give you a perspective the aluminum outfit I worked at years ago we could tack together a 32 ft hull in 3 days it looked like a boat. Then two really skilled welders took 3 weeks to finish the bead.

Will you have full time to dedicate to the project? Or will this be a nights and weekends sort of thing?

Having averaged anywhere from 2-5000 lbds of aluminum purchased a year (barely enough to keep my commercial account active) its a world wide commodity and local prices are as much dictated by policy out of local control. It's come down in the last few months but is still near double 2019. All that to say price savings in alloy will be easily offset with other cost.

The bigger question is where do you want to live the next couple of years? Building a 44 footer from scratch even with a lot of trade knowledge is a big undertaking. Probably a success rate under 10% on completion, I'd Hazzard on time and umder budget .01%. So find a place you want to live and go from there.

Hi comfisherman,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm thinking to work full time on this project. I will quit my job for this purpose. I'm living on a budget for a long time already, in part to save money for this project, but also to learn in advance how to live like a budget sailor, i.e in a very small space, cooking myself (pasta, rice, beans), etc.
Yes, for what I learned, to make an aluminum hull and deck seems to be rather quick, the bigger deal is in the thousand details. If I am to relocate to a 3rd country, it would be for a year or 2, to have something than can sail enough to be transported to Europe, for example. I don't mind if there's no berths yet and I have to sleep in a mattress in the floor, temporarily. I'll have all the time to finish the details afterwards, when it's already afloat.
I am open to any alternative: some suggested Poland, Ukraine, Philippines, Thailand, Brazil, China, Indonesia. But specific cities? I guess 3 things are important: cheap cost of life (food, rent a place), easy to get raw materials and parts, nice weather.
Solved the problem about VAT and import regulations in my question, the only thing left it's to chose a nice place which is homemade-boat-building friendly.
It would be nice to hear from someone who already tried abroad, pros and cons, but also sharing experiences inside Europe or US could give a lot to think of.

 

[renleo]

If you build in the EU the norvegian tax relief conditions are not that problematic. You will become an EU resident anyway by default of living there, so we have 2 years building time, 1 year shakedown cruise and further boat improvement, wich leaves you with 2 years to meet the 5 year requirement. You can either spend them cruising or working somewhere in the EU.

Further analysis of "WHERE" is only possible with hard numbers. Absolute minimum workshop space for your build is 100sqm (not comfortable and you need additional storage elsewhere), so how much does this cost in Norway? If you want to build full time add living space for yourself, food, transportation, etc.
My minimum estimation for full time EU living is 1000-1500€/month and this implies a long research with many on site visits to find a suitable place.

The only 2 problems I see for building in Europe is the cost of living and tons of regulations. Even with a fat budget, the wise thing would be to spare the most possible for the afterlife on board. But maybe there are place inside the EU where to build and register a homemade boat is not so complicated procedure. Certainly I don't see Norway one of them, even the noise would be a serious problem, besides de extremely expensive everything (rent/food/materials/services/transport). Maybe that's why most sailboats here are German or French, I don't see Norwegian brands. I would be bankrupt before the hull plating. It seems to me that's easier to make the hull and deck abroad and come back to Europe to finish, since there're plenty of suppliers of boat parts.
Did anyone tried Gdansk, Szczecin, Kherson, Mikolaiv, or alike? Some experiences to be shared, ups and downs?

 

[comfisherman]

Most diy boats don't get done. Budget and time via for top reasons why nobody finishes. Budget is often the easiest to predict ahead of time. On the time and enthusiasm front that's the wild card, key is to eliminate things that will keep you from finishing. My last boat fit out with less beam than I'd prefer, had to sacrifice some features but was able to work on it near enough to support structure. A dry place to put parts in a vice and a hot shower cannot be underestimated, first world conviennce of modern shipping and supply chain can speed up projects and keep you moving. Aside from extreme rent and cost examples, the intangibles will stop the project faster than anything else.

If it were me and country of origin was no problem probably do it somewhere on the bc coast North of the cities or maybe inland if the design warrants shipping. While it's cooled in recent memory the bc coast and America's pacific nw dominated small aluminum boat building for years. Proximity to even skilled specialized salesmen has an impact. Ever had to locate marine grade alloy thru hulls? North Washington state and British Columbia still have holdover companies that thrived for years and struggles of the recent years. In addition to reasonable access to parts and supplies you will need.