Best Inside Passage Trawler??

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DanRay, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. Man Overboard
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    Man Overboard Tom Fugate

    I think that this response by west defines the divergent argument regarding an inside passage maker (stated as a trawler in the thread title). In the first sentence of Wests quote above he asserts the senselessness of tying up in excess of a million dollars for a heavier (slower) displacement boat when the intended use is for weekends and holidays. He makes it clear that his argument is in regards to short distance travels by the contrasting statement in the following sentence:


    “However if you want to cruise the world, ……go for it”.

    (Or, implied: possibly longer distance in protected waters)


    I think keeping the intended use foremost in your decision making process is essential. I’ve seen the bigger Sea Rays here in Lake Superior and do admire their versatility, but I’ve also seen them limping home in heavy weather (not much more than 6 to 8 knots, bouncing and bobbing quite excessively), while the commercial fishing boats of about the same length make their way fairly effortlessly in the same weather conditions, and at full displacement speed. (With someone standing on deck messing around not even holding on to anything.)


    The 52 foot Sea rays displacement-length ratio is in the neighborhood of 159. Yes, quite light.
     
  2. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    That was (and is) my experience too. But of course we have to talk Trawler, not these semi something sold under the term.

    Building fast planing craft of 52ft and up, AND full displacement boats I can only confirm your statement.

    One of the reasons for our disagreement lies sure in the example given by West, the Nordhavn. That is a semidisplacement vessel. (and by no means a good choice for open ocean travelling)
    These are easy to beat in efficiency by a lighter planing boat, though just to some extend.
    A full displacement boat of similar sized accommodation is not to beat.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  3. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    OK, so just to clarify: the title of this thread is "Best Inside Passage Trawler??"

    If the intended use is to cruise TO the Alaska Inside Passage in a trawler, then we are talking about a displacement speed vessel (trawler) that will cover several thousand miles during this voyage which will occur over the suitable Alaskan cruising season (about 3 to 5 months from June through September), sometimes in very protected inside waters, sometimes in very "square" seas due to currents and winds in the inside passage, and sometimes in very heavy ocean seas between Vancouver Island and Ketchikan.

    We are NOT talking about covering a lot of ground in a weekend. And we are also not talking about vessels that are fine if one is already in Alaskan waters and just going out for a weekend.

    And we are talking about BEST, which excludes Kinda OK.

    Right?
     
  4. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    This statement is perhaps the most directly on the mark so far.
     
  5. DanRay
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    DanRay Junior Member

    U4,the Inside Passage does not exist only in Alaska.I don't wish to repeat what I've posted,so please re-read.
    As I am not retired like West or others,I still need to work 49 weeks a year and it makes no sense to go into heavy debt for an expensive boat to be used for maybe 10 to 14 days a year.In having a coastal boat,I can enjoy it on weekends as does West and most other coastal boaters.

    From what I remember and I hope he doesn't mind,I think he's 22-23 tons loaded,48' and 52' overall.I think he gets 2 nmpg at 8.5 knots and 1 nmpg at 10+ knots.And from 13 to 28 knots he's around .6 to .7 nmpg I believe.He doesn't watch the mpg,just the range.

    Regards

    Dan
     
  6. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, I did..................
     
  7. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Don't think so....

    Sounds like a clear message to me....


    Seems to have it all wrong.


    U4euh,Apex, ManOverboard: tell me what you know of Hecate Strait, Queen Charlotte Sound,local conditions etc.
    Come on,tell me.

    Why don't you email this guy with a 40' Bayliner,and tell him he's been doing it all wrong for the last 11 years,in winter cruising and doing the outside.:

    http://blog.mvdirona.com/2010/01/30/Bayliner4087.aspx
     
  8. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    "tell him he's been doing it all wrong for the last 11 years,in winter cruising and doing the outside.:

    ...the Lord moves in mysterious ways.........
     
  9. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    It is wrong to portray that a Sea Ray can compete on any level other than speed and certain ranges. Pay attention to the two sections of bold print. Get what boat you want, fella, but don't make stuff up and present it as fact. "Yup, yup, It's like Han says - it does better than trawlers." When, in fact, you have no idea other than what he told you. Also, did you completely miss the parts where professionals related how the planing boat gets thrashed and that I could lead him on a chase that would require his rescue (and my little boat is semi-displacement). You will be fine with a nice, big planing boat like you have convinced yourself but pros here are telling you facts. The one good thing about boats like that is that the price of fuel renders them of reduced value. Find a speed range were the flow meter tells you something good, go out for the day, I'll get there an hour later, have deck space for pulling pots, fishing, sunning, take a wave without popping a window or breaking bulkheads loose, and burn far less fuel by the end of the day. A displacement boat would be a little slower and burn yet less fuel and take yet more weather. If you are basing your economy dream on the lightness of such a boat...consider that there is no technology there that isn't available to a trawler manufacturer. If it is lighter, there is less boat. YOU ARE ARGUING WITH PEOPLE WHO KNOW! "After being on West's yacht (WOW!!!) and seeing how much privacy and space is gained by an aft cabin layout that is the route we will take.But not so large as West's,we think from 36 to 41' or so.The space he has is just wonderful and the fuel economy is-like he says-better than trawlers.One well known respected trawler (58') we looked at online,West gets better mpg at 7 knots,it equals out at 10 and the mileage the 58' gets at 10.5 knots is the same West gets at 22 knots... ...Thanks once again to West for graciously spending an hour with us on his yacht..too bad it's not in the water"
    For you, a planing boat is the best inside passage option but don't expect to have us allow some innocent read this and believe that a planing boat can compete in any arena other than the one where you zip here to there and back in calm to moderate weather in the least amount of time. Add a little weather and you are held up in a cove and that weekender boat hadn't dare stick its nose out. Now you are late for work on Monday and the entire reason for buying the faster boat is invalid. "Who's that coming by the cove where we are dragging anchor? Oh, the displacement boat...on his way back to Seattle."
    Do you want me to tell you about Hecate, Han? The short answer is that the Coast Pilot has more information than any casual user ever can acquire. Hecate Strait gets shitty. You might stay a week in Nanaimo or even Telegraph Cove or Port Hardy waiting for the weather to break. I was there in 1986 when three people outside of Port Hardy tried to get out of a tight spot in seas and fog with a tug and tow nearby, got caught in a rip and couldn't make headway. They rolled under the 140M barge. I know of a Hanson seiner that popped a bulkhead in Hecate. I know boats that capsized on their way home from Swiftsure. Boats rolled, crushed, sunk at Ediz Hook on the other side. I used to deliver boats like the Sea Ray when I was a kid because the owners had no business being on outside water. One time having the foofy latch pop loose on a sliding door and having that door commence to beat the **** out of everything in sight then fly off and break the glass table at Tatoosh Island is enough to make one say "Oh". Be careful with the gin palace out there, guys.
     
  10. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    I did not, and do not e mail anyone on this topic. And sure not people telling nonsense, and replacing a non perfect boat with a larger non perfet boat.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  11. Pierre R
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    Pierre R Senior Member

    Dan Ray a boat that you might want to look at as long as you are looking at the Sea Ray types is a Bayliner 4588 pilot house.

    Easy to launch kayaks, light at delivers 1 mpg at 16-17 knots and has a fantastic roomy layout and a dry comfortable area from which to steer the boat.


    As far as trawlers in North America goes, 95% of pleasure production trawlers are planing and semi-planing hulls with their respective poor efficiencies. It's also true that 95% of all these boat owners and their boat brokers think they are driving a displacement boat. Buyer beware.
     
  12. Man Overboard
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    Man Overboard Tom Fugate

    West, settle down there cowboy, no offense intended towards you or your yacht. Keep in mind that the folks here on the forum come from diverse educational backgrounds and experience; in addition there is cultural differences that make effective communication through writing difficult at times. For instance, I was not clear in regards to "Implied" I was more so referring to the title, (of the thread) rather than your statement, The ill placed sentence made it appear as though I was referring to your statements.

    I followed the link that West provided, within the same website there is an interesting article When Displacement Speed Beats Planing Speed http://blog.mvdirona.com/2010/09/09/WhenDisplacementSpeedBeatsPlaningSpeed.aspx ;
     
  13. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Well Mark,about Queen Charlotte Sound and Hecate.
    You didn't mention:summer months it's mostly quite calm and in the mornings,QCS 9 days out of 10 is almost dead calm.

    Please tell me how you are waiting in Nanaimo for a week,in the summer,for Hecate to clear up.
    Tell me when,in summer holiday cruising that the exposed 30 nmile part in QCS is so bloody terrible that everyone has to wait a week for it to be navigable by anything.

    Talking summer cruising,with very adequate warning of any very rare summer gales piling into Hecate....WTF are boats doing in Hecate when it's pounding anyways..trawlers or not...why aren't they in the Inside Passage???
    There's only several hundred coves,inlets and bays around...
    I've been delayed very very rarely in 26 years since I was a kid...that's going out 12-15 weekends a year, almost always a month each summer,and 2-3 week-long fishingtrips.

    You delivered SeRays when you were a kid...so in the 60s and 70's when their biggest boat was what ...a 32' or so?
    And I do agree..WTF were they doing on the outside in bad weather?

    Dan does say "Inside Passage"

    Once again...how about the use of the boat,spending huge money on a boat that can't be used on weekends?
    Gulf Islands are 40 nm away,as is Pender Harbour.
    A working guy with an 8 knot boat is going to leave work,get the family,and cannot get there before 11pm on Friday...so they need to get up 6am,and hopefully get there before noon on Saturday.
    Then they need to leave before noon Sunday to get back home before 6PM Sunday..so they spend 10 hours traveling for one day R&R if they're lucky and don't fight currents/tides..and arrive home exhausted.

    So you're telling him to spend huge coin on a trawler that he may get to go to Saltspring Island only for 2 long weekends a year?
    So then he's stuck with a pricey boat that at best he can putt around Bowen Island and go up Indian Arm with on weekends...take a weekend trip to Squamish...oooh so exciting!!!

    ManOver...I don't care if people criticize my boat,it's just that people who are not in the immediate area telling me what's best for me.
    I haven't been to the Adriatic,nor the Great lakes: so I don't try to tell those that live there what is best for the area/personal style of use.

    Comparing a $1.4 million dollar brand new 53' trawler to a 40' $120k coastal boat designed in the early 90's?
    Really?


    Dan wants to go out on weekends:fishing,kayaking,and crabbing and for a week or two in the summer.
    He can easily spend the next 10 years exploring from the North tip of Vancouver Island south in very protected areas...and never even make it past Queen Charlotte Sound,which is the 30 nm gap in a summertime usually quite calm area.

    Look at a map.

    Here's another guy apparently doing it all wrong and dangerously, Diver Magazine since 1975,written 7 books on anchorages and docks on the BC Coast in 16 years...check out his boat:
    http://marineguides.com/docs/author.html

    His newer boat is an even more dangerous 28 footer
     
  14. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    Bravo ManOverboard...bravo....very clever omitting.

    Here's what you omitted:

    "To travel We ran 24x7 directly from Seattle along the west coast of Vancouver Island and the Queen Charlotte Islands, and reached the Glacier Bay area in 5 days. The total distance to our first anchorage was about 875 nautical miles. "

    They avoided the 4 to 8 knot currents and tides and traffic/fish boats/cruise ships that the old 40' had to contend with....hardly the Inside Passage that the old Bayliner had to deal with.

    I'm also curious how the Nordhavn's 24 hrs a day for 5 days (120 hours) is faster than the Bayliner's 6 days at 14 hours a day (84 hours)

    Slowing the Bayliner down to 7.8 knots,he'd go 700 miles to empty and not stop every day for fuel.
    Wonder what the burn rate is at the Nord's 9.5 knot top speed and how long it would take to do the same trip,on the Inside Passage....
     

  15. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    I forgot about Bob, yet another fool :rolleyes: riding around from Alaska south for 3 months a year in his 37 Tolly sedan.

    Since 1993

    http://www.waggonerguide.com/browse.html


    "We had a Tolly 26 for nearly six years, and for the past nine years we've had a 37 ...the 37 is a wonderful boat for a couple, but except for short times, not so good for more than two.
    Although I pine for a 48, I think the 37 will be our last boat. It's very strong, has lots of window area, a big main cabin, excellent galley, adequate head with stall shower, and a large forward sleeping area. Tankage is 300 U.S. gallons of fuel, 140 U.S. gallons water.
    Our top cruising speed is 16-20 knots, although we run at 8.5 knots much of the time, burning 4 U.S. gallons per hour. At 16 knots we probably burn around 16 gallons per hour. "
     
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