Best 5086 temper? (H32 H116 etc.)

Discussion in 'Metal Boat Building' started by Cjbrill715, Jan 13, 2025.

  1. Cjbrill715
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    Cjbrill715 New Member

    So I'm seeing several temper designations on 5086. I intend to form/ bend the rise on the bow with ratchet straps and turn buckles, and I'm looking at 3/16" thickness. So I'm wondering what temper best suits the ability to work with it in this manner, and which one will be the best for welded strength? FYI....I also would prefer the temper that isn't necessarily the strongest in just raw tensile strength, but the one that's toughest from a maluable standpoint. I realize there are a many opinions on this subject, please keep this conversation practical, I'm just concerned about building an awesome boat, not learning about all the chemistry involved in every alloy.
     
  2. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    For this, an O temper or H111.

    If you are doing a lot of forming do not select a strain hardened temper.

    Or in simple graphical form:
    upload_2025-1-14_9-17-12.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2025
  3. Cjbrill715
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    Cjbrill715 New Member

    Okay, thanks. So, would h116 be a similar metal to h111 as far as workability? This temper seems to be a little more available on my end...
     
  4. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    No...H116 is a strain hardened temper.
    H111..is merely a light rolling to aid dimensional tolerances, in that sense.
     
  5. baeckmo
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    baeckmo Hydrodynamics

    Interesting graph Ad Hoc, do you have similar available on, say 5052 and 5754?
     
  6. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Hi Baeckmo,

    I generally do not use these alloys, so have very limited data on them.
    But when strain hardened, I would suggest that it would follow a consistent pattern, as per 5083, but with slightly less over load capacity:

    For 5052:
    O - 145%
    H32 - 62%
    H34 - 53%

    For 5754:
    O - 138%
    H32 - 69%
    H34 - 50%
     
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  7. Dave G 9N
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    Dave G 9N Senior Member

    When you say form/bend do you mean that in the same sense as bending plywood to a mold? If you are just bending it into a developable surface as you would with plywood, 3/16" sheet should be similar in stiffness to plywood between 5/16 and 3/8 inch thick. The elastic modulus of plywood varies between 1 and 1.9 million psi (6.9 to 13 GPa) and is close to 10,000,000 psi for all aluminum alloys.

    Bending as in forming a right angle bend is more complicated. The bend radius needed to avoid cracking varies with temper and thickness. For the O temper, the minimum bend radius is 1t for 5052, 5083 and 5086. For all three, H32 is 1 ½t. H34 it is 2t for 5052 and for 5086 2½t. These are the only tempers listed with bend radii in ASM Handbook Vol 2, 1990 ed. The H112 tempers should be similar to O and the H116 temper should act like H32 based on the yield strength. The radius is for the inside of a 90º bend at room temperature. The force required to bend varies directly with yield strength and spring back is a combination of yield and modulus. 3/16 thick material will require a press brake or a good sized hammer. Lots of light blows will give much better results than fewer heavy blows.

    Welded strength will be low. It can vary with the process, but mostly it is assumed that the heat affected zone will be fully annealed. The stresses in the welds are not the same as everywhere else. The dent resistance is a lot better for the harder tempers. Toughness in aluminum alloys is not a figure that you will find in the properties tables because the charpy impact strength is rarely much different, so no one wastes time and money on charpy testing. There isn't that much standardization in dent resistance testing for panels. Ford has standards for the F150 that are similar to TACOMs, but it has been a while since I dealt with them and the sheet was much thinner. They tend to use alloys similar to 6022-T4, which bends very well when recently solution treated and hardens rapidly in the paint drying oven or reasonably quickly in direct sunlight.
     
  8. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    This is simply not correct.
    To use 1t is inviting serious cracking issues and a 1 1/2t on strain hardened tempers it will crack during bending.

    For ref, DNV's min bend radii for 5083:
    upload_2025-2-7_20-4-59.png

    and in more general :
    upload_2025-2-7_20-4-45.png

    As can be seen, the higher the strain hardened tempt the greater the minim bend radius, for obvious reasons.
     
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  9. Dave G 9N
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    Dave G 9N Senior Member

    Nobody makes small radius bends with a Spanish windlass.
    We have both worked for decades in different industries. My information is different from your information. Not better, just different. Both of us were doing this before there was an internet, so don't assume google-fu.
    No, it is not incorrect, just slightly different by ½t here and there. These are guidelines, not absolute limits.

    Different specifications and guidelines from different sources vary in detail. These guidelines are not absolute and minor differences are to be expected. If you have access to ASM Handbook, formerly 10th ed. Metals Handbook Vol 2 p53 Table 9, you will find that for a given thickness of the same alloy and temper the differences between ASM and EN 496-2 are on the order of ½t. You may also notice that EN 496-2 uses wider thickness ranges, so the radius for 3/16" sheet in ASM falls under 1/4" plate in EN 496-2. The ASM table is for a standard press brake with air bend dies. It states that other types of bending operations allow smaller or require larger bending radii and that the bend radii can also vary with the design and condition of the tooling.

    "...please keep this conversation practical..."
     
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  10. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    That is self evident from your postings.

    And that's the point. ASM, is just a "generalised" set of data, nothing else.
    Which goes to my point, you are merely cut-n-pasting what you consider to be a set of rules or accepted standards from an unrelated industry, into shipbuilding/boats.

    One does not build a boat/vessel to ASM rules or standards.
    One builds to Class rules, which have very clearly define minimum standards.

    We never use less that 4t for any alloy when bending forming in hull plating for a multitude of reasons.
    To suggest otherwise is showing ignorance in the subject to which this thread is related. Viz:-

    So yes, you come from a very different industry to that of shipbuilding.
     
  11. Dave G 9N
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    Dave G 9N Senior Member

    To the OP, I will apologize to you for the following impractical argument.

    Ad, sneering at the OP like that was unwarranted. He asked a legitimate question. He is not a shipbuilder and is not in fact building a ship. He only asked for a little help. We are not here to insult people for knowing less than we do.

    Here is a copy-n-paste:
    Your point, such as it is, is a blatant misrepresentation of what I had to say.

    You rarely use 5000 series Al alloys. You have limited information on them. You never bend (thick) hull plating to less than 4t. What you rarely do you may never do with much of a range of thickness, alloy temper and bend angle. You imply more of a range than you describe.
     
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  12. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Dear of dear, your lack of comprehension along with you endless misdirection to avoid answer the claims you made are endless.
    (If English is not your native language, I do apologise. Nuances of syntax and grammar can be confusing to 2LS).

    Indeed.
    This was quoting (which is cited) the raison d’etre of the thread - information on building boats – to put into context of why generalised data on ASM that you cited (for the subject of the sentence), is meaningless.

    For the hard of reading:
    One does not build boats to ASM standards that you are endlessly cut-n-pasting as if is answers all...!

    Please find another forum where your misdirection and a calling posters trolls because you can’t answer your claims are appreciated by those with less brains cells then their shoe size.

    As for the rest of your word salad diarrhoea ....yawn! o_O
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2025 at 3:21 AM
  13. Dave G 9N
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    Dave G 9N Senior Member

    You were unable or unwilling to provide any details or answer any direct questions in support or your claims.

    ASM is not a standards organization. The information provided was presented as guidance with no mention of a specification requirement. Any specious argument to the contrary is misdirection and requires no further answer.

    You have resorted to argumentum ad hominem. In case your own linguistic skills are lacking, I will take the liberty of copy and paste: "Often currently this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than the substance of the argument itself.'' You are free to point out that this is also argumentum ad hominem. No one suggested that your endless misdirection on this thread makes you a troll. Why bring it up?
     
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  14. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    And that's the point.
    Why do you keep making reference to a generalised set of data set that is not pertinent to this thread and the OPs question?.....

    In case you missed it... - that of building boats...?
     

  15. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    @Cjbrill715 left this conversation 28 days ago.:confused:
     
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