beauties

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by WindRaf, Dec 11, 2014.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yeah, as I and Windraf have mentioned, some take "liberties" with definitions, but the Freedom 21 is a cat, while the Freedom 25 is a tough one to call. The first generation was a rotating wing stick and a cat, but the non-rotating newer version can be sometimes (not a very popular option BTW) seen with a gun mount staysail or chute, though this appears to be an additional sail and not part of the working sails, so she'd still be a cat. I make this determination by the apparent CE location on the main, which shows a significant lead. If the headsails where added to this, the lead would be well out of line (pushing 20%) for a hull and appendage combination like this.
     
  2. Jammer Six

    Jammer Six Previous Member

    I see no reason why he would want that.
     
  3. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

  4. WindRaf
    Joined: Oct 2014
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    What is difficult to understand is that those who have 3000 years of nautical history in their culture, if all boats with two masts are called schooner, says absolutely nothing. With 3000 years of history, the boats with two masts, are so many and so different that if they are not indicated in specific type overall is impossible to indicate.
    So, for me, 'schooner' is only the specific north America type.

    I apologize for my communication problems
     
  5. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Why are you still trying to defend something that isn't defensible? You clearly mis-spoke about the schooner, so rather than admit you've made this oops, you've elected to try to confuse the subject with misdirection, conjecture and blatant ignorance of well established protocols, in regard to what defines the type.

    Your last post is a perfect example of this. You state that some are suggesting all two masted boats are schooners, which hasn't been stated by anyone on this thread (except you). In fact, the number of masts hasn't anything to do with the definition of a schooner, of course except to say there has to be more than one. So, why would you interject this erroneous bit of absurdity into the conversation, if it's not to simply misdirect and confuse folks about your actual understanding of the type?

    Naturally and as typical with all of your posts, you will not directly address any questions posed at you, instead, as the above and your previous posts prove (repeatedly), you'll just make something else up or toss out some more ridiculousness about two masted boats in general and possibly schooners specifically. Maybe communications isn't your strong suit, but you inability to convey answers to specific questions or define specific points of debate seem just something you're not capable of. This isn't the only thread you've had these "problems" with, so it must be surmised, that it's your inability to define your thoughts in a logical and rational format, even with translation errors that inevitably creep in.
     
  6. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    PAR
    you can have the idea that you want, is your right, but here, we say 'schooner' to indicate only the american type. I mean we say 'schooner' in english.
    Goletta is european type, different in many concepts like schooner, and goletta is different like brigantino, and brigantino is different like trabaccolo...and trabaccolo is different like feluca.
    Then i know if i use Google traslate, each one has the same traslation, but this is because google is not yacht designer.
    If you want undestand that in the world ther is different culture than your, ok, if you dont want acept this is ok also.
    Is not my problem.
     
  7. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Jim Young called the Bladon Racer a sketch (cross between schooner/ketch) - then what is this rig on the Skimmer, cat rigged sketch?
     

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  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Once again Windraf, you've not answered any of the questions directly, what a surprise. It's no wonder that after nearly a year of membership here, you're still in the negative rep arena. Congratulations on such a notable accomplishment.

    Gary the "sketch" thing is cute, but if the masts are all but equal, they're still generally considered a schooner. In fact, if memory serves me correctly the main gooseneck on Young's Bladon was a few inches higher than the fore, so even though they where the same sail area, because the main was slightly higher (just a couple of inches), she'd be considered a schooner. Had the gooseneck been lower, she'd be a ketch.
     
  9. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    PAR, if I'm in bad rep is because you provoke and cause .... then when I get bored I react and take the 'warning'.
    You did the same thing with other members.
    Your, 'direct questions' here no one has yet figured out what.
    If you are talking about of technical and nautical history, this thread is full of answers, but if you're referring to me personally I answer for the umpteenth time that does not concern you.
    Now I hope that you end up with the controversy and let this thread freedom to develop in his title.
     
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  10. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    yeah, very good example.
     
  11. Jammer Six

    Jammer Six Previous Member

    No one answers rhetorical questions, par.

    Particularly the way you phrase them.
     
  12. saltdragon
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    saltdragon Junior Member

    "No Dan his uncle replied. there isn't such a thing as a cat-schooner. the name of a rig which has two masts of about the same height and no headsail is sometimes called a 'periauger', it is a very ancient rig that was much used in Holland some three hundred years ago.It was also used around the mouth of the Hudson from Dutch times, until perhaps 1830. They were used for ferry boats running to Staten Island and towns on the Jersey shore, and were sometimes called 'pirogue' ferries. It might interest you to know that the original Cornelius Vanderbilt started the family's fortune in a periauger that he sailed out of Staten Island around 1810."
    The Complete Cruiser - L Francis Herreshoff.
     

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  13. Jamie Kennedy
    Joined: Jun 2015
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    Jamie Kennedy Senior Member

    Very true, but historically it has changed a fair bit, and originated as a Dutch boat.

    Here is a wonderful old book with lots of history and illustrations, and more descriptive terms than just 'schooner' for everything with two masts.

    https://archive.org/details/reportonshipbui00hallgoog
     
  14. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    A periauger?
    Okay.
    But cat sketch has a better ring to it. No?
    But no, not official, some locally made up nonsense.
    Can't see me calling my skimmer a periauger though.
     

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  15. saltdragon
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    saltdragon Junior Member

    ;) Schimmer ?
     
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