Batteries and New Battery Technologies

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by brian eiland, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. JonathanCole
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    JonathanCole imagineer

    Brian, As mentioned in an earlier post, one of the most important characteristics of energy storage technologies is their self-discharge rate. This is a weak point of many of the newer super/ultra capacitor technologies.
     
  2. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Brian,

    Your post caused me a flashback, which Wikipedia was able to repair. :D :D
    The phrase "notched electrons" was followed by Multivac. Issac Asimov wrote a loosely connected series of stories concerning a fictional computer called Multivac. The Last Question was "Can entropy be reversed?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

    Asimov postulated an ever more powerful computer technology in which information was stored on notched electrons. That was far sighted for 1956! The technology for storing electricity is about to take that huge leap, equivalent to Asimov's wonderful imagination so many years ago and even hand held phasers may not be fiction for much longer. Yes please, I want one! Thanks for keeping us up to date with these new developments.

    Regards,

    Perry
     
  3. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Electrical vs Chemical Storage Discharge

    I might have to go back and read about some of these technologies more throughly, as I was under the impression that the chemical tech batteries suffered much worst from self-discharge verses the capacitor tech ones?? But the chemical ones still held the upper hand with total storage capacity??
     
  4. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    A123 Batteries

    Seems there are a lot of people trying out A123 batteries.
    Some interesting examples:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7_NvpzPfeE&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ayuFBDrSg&feature=related
    http://futuredrive.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/safety-of-a123-battery-cell/
    http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion

    Seems the electric powered car can be made by combining an A123 battery pack and Toyota Prius.
    http://www.a123systems.com/hymotion

    Yet to see what happens if one of the A123 batteries get dropped into water.

    There is a lot of development going on with these batteries and associated equipment.

    Rick W.
    Rick W.
     
  5. afrhydro
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    afrhydro Senior Member

    Love these batteries
    i need 72 volts for my project
     
  6. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    My need is enough (to be useful for house & nav @ 12 or 24v) and to drive 2 x 10 kw motors as per the African Cats project (144v pulsed DC), and 240 Vac for some domestic stuff. - - Charged by 3 kw solar panels and 2 x 10 kw 144v DC generators....

    Please - How much for thebatteries?:D Sufficient for about one hour at 7 to 15kw to the motors?

    (the generators I like at the moment are the Lombardini LDW 702 or 1003 from Polar Power around US$9000 ea., & solar panels are priced from marinedirect.com.au - STA165-24 "rated" at 165w & 18 units @ AU$1310 each - includes regulators & mounting)
     
  7. plankton
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    plankton Hang on, beeg wave !

    An absorbing read and many links to follow. All good and for those of us who care about the world and its dependence on oil, the new battery technology seems to be a blessing about to come true.

    BUT, despite these advances in batteries and charging systems, might we be missing a point ? How we will be making all these batteries for our cars and our boats ? For example, auto sales in the U.S. alone are about 15 million vehicles per year. Thus, to convert to electric cars with batteries, we must mine and refine at least five million tons of lithium, copper, nickel, lead, and whatever other metals are used to make 15 million battery packs for all those cars. Five million more tons of metals mined each year just for the US car population, assuming an average of 500 lbs of battery pack per vehicle. How much more then for the rest of the world and all the other powered vehicles we wish to use battery power for ?

    In effect, in our quest for the best power solution for our hybrid cars and circumnavigating vessels (and mountain gobbling trains, of course :p ) are we about to lose sight of the fact that we might actually be doing even more damage to our environment than we would rather hope we were not doing ?

    I don't mean to offend anyone and hope someone will justly pour scorn on my theory, but it's just a thought - I'm all for clean power, but wonder whether we shouldn't be pursuing the hydrogen/saltwater fuel solution better - after all, if Jules Verne said it would come true then it surely will, right ? :D

    Also, I don't see it mentioned anywhere on the site (though I have most likely not encountered it yet) but you might like to see this Odyssey-powered catamaran launched in China last month. It has a theroetical infinite range at 6 knots if weather conditions allow. It's quite interesting to see what they've done to it, systems wise. It's not the most beautiful of boats, though ! :D If it's been mentioned before, my apologies for the repeat link.

    http://dsehybrid.com/index.html
     
  8. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    plankton,

    I sort of agree, but we will have to go back to making things that are supposed to last, not the planned obsolescence that we have been following for the last 40 years or so. I hate throwing anything away, there is so much that can be repaired and so much that is economically impossible (electronics), but we can at least design and build for longer life expectancies, that would surely help the situation. My Landrover is 25 years old, as good today as the day it was built, unfortunately I gave it to my Sister, ........the rest just makes me cranky so I will not go into details.
     
  9. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Plankton, - One of the difficulties lie in the portability of fuel for diesel engines, and the convenience of same... Coconut Oil will run on diesel engines happily in the tropics (below 24 deg celsius it solidifies)... On a boat, where the engines run for extended periods and IF the fuel is PURE CNO then preheat to 70 deg Celsius

    (WORDS OF CAUTION - this is very close to the flash point of diesel fuel as sold in most western countries - US is heavier? - FLASH POINT is where it can self ignite with a big bang)

    Where I will be cruising CNO is easily obtained/extracted from coconuts.... Hydrogen still needs power to extract it from the water - just an extra step in solar photovoltaic & batteries. - - - Hydrogen at ambient is at FLASH point - I do not like explosives floating around in my boat....

    I would be very concerned with quality control from China, lots of enthusiastic and hard working motivation but somewhat lacking on skills development and trades experience...
     
  10. plankton
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    plankton Hang on, beeg wave !

    Masalai,

    All taken on board, but one point - if the hydrogen was used as it was produced (ie: no storage) then it might be a possibility - this is the premise of those seeking to extend the development of the potential of Brown's Gas.

    However, if we still need the power to extract the gas, surely that could be provided by your coconut-oil powered generator ? A marriage of convenience maybe ? Hawking meets Benjamin Christie ?

    Of course, we haven't exhausted the possibilities of nuclear power yet. I see Toshiba have managed to squeeze a self-contained reactor into a 20 x 6 foot area now. One for the starboard engine and one for the port side, perhaps ? On a decent sized vessel, of course.......

    I wasn't asking you to spend your dosh on a Chinese boat - thought the concept was interesting for its successful trails. You can buy boats, Steyr engines and Odyssey batteries elsewhere......
     
  11. masalai
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    masalai masalai

  12. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    More SuperCaps & Carbon Aerogel

    ...ran across this recently
    http://www.rise.org.au/info/Tech/scap/index.html


    What are Supercapacitors?
    With characteristics of both batteries and capacitors, supercapacitors (also called electrochemical capacitors or ultracapacitors) could be used by utilities to regulate power quality. A capacitor is a device that stores energy in the electric field created between a pair of conductors on which electric charges of equal magnitude, but opposite sign, have been placed. A supercapacitor is an electrochemical capacitor that has an unusually large amount of energy storage capability relative to its size, when compared to common capacitors. These are of particular interest in automotive applications for hybrid vehicles and as supplemental storage for battery electric vehicles, as well as power electronics applications such as in wind turbines.


    Figure 1 Photo of a bank of Maxwell PowerCache Ultacapacitors under a cars bonnet (Photo copyright Metric Mind).


    Capacitors are electronic devices that that can provide enormous amounts of power, but only store very small amounts of energy. Alternatively, batteries can store large amounts of energy, but provide relatively low power outputs. Supercapacitors can provide both higher power outputs and store lots of energy.


    Supercapacitor Technology
    When a supercapacitor is charged, the energy is stored as a charge or concentration of electrons on the surface of a material. This means a supercapacitor is capable of very fast charges and discharges which can achieve a very large number of cycles without degradation, even at 100% depth of discharge (DOD). Capacitors are made from various materials in many ways, from multilayer ceramics, ceramic disc, multilayer polyester film, tubular ceramic, axial and radial polystyrene, to carbon nanotubes (Wikipedia, 2006a).

    Supercapacitors found their first application in military projects such as starting the engines of battle tanks and submarines or replacing batteries in missiles. Common applications today include starting diesel trucks and railroad locomotives, actuators, and in electric/hybrid-electric vehicles for transient load levelling and regenerating the energy of braking. NASA has used 30 large supercapacitors in its turbo-electric city bus (EERE, 2006).

    Carbon nanotubes and polymers, or carbon aerogels, are practical for supercapacitor designs. Carbon nanotubes have excellent nanoporosity properties, allowing tiny spaces for the polymer to sit in the tube and act as a dielectric. Polymers have a redox (reduction-oxidation) storage mechanism along with a high surface area. MIT's Laboratory of Electromagnetic and Electronic Systems (LEES) is researching using carbon nanotubes (LEES, 2006).

    Supercapacitors are also being made of carbon aerogel. Carbon aerogel is a unique material providing extremely high surface area of about 400-1000 m2/g. Capacitances of up to 104F/g and 77 F/cm3 have been achieved. Some corporations, such as Cooper Electronic Technologies, are already producing aerogel-based supercapacitors. Their maximum voltage is 2.5V, but they can achieve an energy density of 325 kJ/kg (disputed as 10.6 kJ/kg, see Discussion), which is about 70% of that provided by the state-of-the-art lithium polymer batteries. Power densities achieved are even higher, up to 20 kW/kg, orders of magnitude higher than what Li-poly offers. Small aerogel supercapacitors are being used as backup batteries in microelectronics, but applications for electric vehicles are increasing (Wikipedia, 2006b).



    Figure 2 Superconductors. Courtesy of Harald Sattler’s Modellbau und Elektronik Supercapacitor


    Supercapacitor Applications
    The newly developed Honda Fuel Cell Stack and ultra-capacitor combine to power the motor, with onboard high-pressure hydrogen tanks for fuel storage for the new Honda FCX hydrogen fuel cell car. The fuel cell vehicle is powered by an electric motor running on electricity generated by a fuel stack which uses hydrogen as its energy source. Considering factors such as energy efficiency during power generation and driving, overall system weight, and packaging efficiency, Honda has equipped the FCX with a system that combines a fuel cell stack and ultra-capacitor (see Figure 1) with onboard high-pressure hydrogen tanks (Honda Worldwide, 2006).

    Renewable energy technologies feature in the applications for supercapacitors with Alain Riedo, vice president and general manager of Maxwell’s Swiss subsidiary, Maxwell Technologies SA, said that Enercon currently uses BOOSTCAP® ultracapacitors (see Figure 3) for backup energy storage and power delivery in wind turbine models ranging in output from 300 kW to 6 MW. “In addition to being one of the world’s largest wind turbine producers, Enercon is recognized as a leading innovator in the design and manufacture of megawatt class turbines,” Riedo said. “To optimize energy output and enhance system reliability and longevity, each of Enercon’s turbines’ three blades has an independent braking and pitch adjustment mechanism with backup power to ensure continuous operation in the event of a power failure. Each turbine incorporates from 200 to 700 BOOSTCAP ultracapacitors for backup power.” (Maxwell Technologies, 2006).

    Ulrich Neundlinger, Enercon’s managing director of switching units, said that the company is expanding its use of ultracapacitors for blade pitch system backup power after initial deployments confirmed their significant advantages over traditional battery solutions. “Ultracapacitors enabled us to overcome a number of battery-related design challenges, including poor low temperature performance and limited operational life,” Neundlinger said. “Maxwell’s products emerged as the clear choice for this application on the basis of their robust construction, long operating life and cost-effectiveness. Wind turbine operators need low-maintenance systems that operate reliably for many years, and BOOSTCAP products have proven that they can help us to continue to meet our customers’ expectations.” (Maxwell Technologies, 2006).


    ...and in consideration of our enviroment;
    ...note that the majority of the 'materials' utilized in this battery technology is CARBON...the single most abundant material on earth, and the universe..right??
     
  13. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    EEStor issued a patent

    Well not exactly, as they just announced another delay in coming to the market. BUT, they did just get a patent...

    Dec 22, Slashdot.org, news for nerds, stuff that matters

    An anonymous reader sends us to GM-volt.com, an electric vehicle enthusiast blog, for the news that last week EEStor was granted a US patent for their electric-energy storage unit, of which no one outside the company (no one who is talking, anyway) has seen so much as a working prototype. We've discussed the company on a number of occasions. The patent (PDF available) is a highly information-rich document that offers remarkable insight into the device. EEStor notes "the present invention provides a unique lightweight electric-energy storage unit that has the capability to store ultrahigh amounts of energy."
    "The core ingredient is an aluminum coated barium titanate powder immersed in a polyethylene terephthalate plastic matrix. The EESU is composed of 31,353 of these components arranged in parallel. It is said to have a total capacitance of 30.693 F and can hold 52.220 kWh of energy. The device is said to have a weight of 281.56 pound including the box and all hardware. Unlike lithium-ion cells, the technology is said not to degrade with cycling and thus has a functionally unlimited lifetime. It is mentioned the device cannot explode when being charge or impacted and is thus safe for vehicles."
    ____________________________________________

    ...from another contributor...
    Take a car battery rated 12 V, capacity 60 Ah. This battery can keep up a current of 60A for about one hour (actual capacity depends on discharge rate, lower rate equals higher capacity - up to a point). 60A * 12V DC = 720W. It can do that for about an hour -> capacity 720Wh or about 0.72 KWh. The 12V battery in my tractor has a capacity of 180 Ah which roughly translates to (12 * 180 =) 2.16 KWh. It weighs some 60kg. This EEStor maybe-real-soon-now device has a claimed weight of 128 kg. You'd get about 5 KWh worth of Lead-Acid capacity for that weight, meaning this device - if it ever sees the light of day - has about 10 times more capacity per kg
     
  14. Guest625101138

    Guest625101138 Previous Member

    A large capacitor will present some interesting challenges for control systems. Unlike batteries their energy storage is a function of voltage. Batteries are effectively a constant voltage source. So controllers will need to be designed to operate on an ever diminishing voltage level.

    These capacitors have about 3 times the energy density of lithium batteries. If they get to market we will see some interesting vehicles. They have potential to make existing cars look/feel incredibly sluggish.

    The other thing is that there will be serious competition for lithium so we might see keener prices with these.

    Rick W.
     

  15. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    When I was looking at 'super flywheel' energy storage technology and several postings here, I thought I remember on a number of occassions hearing of 10X energy storage densities out of the National Labs, etc ? And just above, "you'd get about 5 KWh worth of Lead-Acid capacity for that weight, meaning this device - if it ever sees the light of day - has about 10 times more capacity per kg".

    Of course these are just 'claims' in the development stages.
     
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