Basalt fiber

Discussion in 'Materials' started by Jim Allen, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

    Sorry about that..I commercial fish for a living along with being a pilot and most of the times that I need to do any kind of repairs is marine related. I'm sorry if I come across as a prick. Just been one of those days. I think my favoring of basalt is only do to the cost of it compared to carbon fiber. And my over whelming hatred of fiberglass. As I stated before I'm having to build 15 little boats that are 8ftx 4ft x 16inches and will look just like a mini Carolina skiff. It will only hold nets but they do take a beating . Do you have any ideas as to what would be my better choices? Thanks again
     
  2. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Sincerely Jim, I am a fan of innovation but I believe that this material is not yet mature for use in massive plan on boats. As far as I know, there is no regulatory body that admits it for shipbuilding. When you have to obtain a certificate, or similar, of quality, you will have no way of demonstrating the physical and mechanical properties of the composite used, and no one will want to issue a certificate of quality for your boats. If you try to buy an insurance policy, it will be difficult for any company to grant it at a reasonable price.
    The material, as far as I know, is not approved for shipbuilding.
    If you want to make several identical boats, using a mold, the material is FRP and, if you think that any area will suffer especially from abrasion, reinforce it with carbon or, better, with aramid. Try not to mix more materials different from those strictly necessary.
    That's my opinion but you continue asking as I'm sure that here there are manufacturers with much more knowledge than me. I am not a boat manufacturer.
     
  3. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

    Yes sir I'm sure that's true..I do know there's several racing yaughts that are basalt. There is one great thing about it and that's the fire risk. Basalt is volcanic ash so fire would be hard to start..lol
     
  4. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

    That frp will it hardens will it have any floatation to it? Or is it ok to put a peice of 1/4 inch foam in between the layers. What I was thinking about doing if possible is running a 2inch thick peice of foam around the top of the rails. If you have seen a panga they have a set up like I'd like to try. Thank you for your help. That is what I was hoping to achieve out of this thread. I was going to put a thicker material where the eye bolts are in bow and stern. And then I will put a coating of steel flex on the bottom as that stuff really protects the hull..sir thank you again for your input. I realize that I am green when it comes to new materials but I feel that unless I'm willing to fail then I won't ever get away from the fibergpass
     
  5. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

     
  6. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

    Tansyl, if you don't mind do you have a guestimate as to the cost of these materials. And can I use any epoxy? Lastly where I'm adding the extra stuff can I still use the same epoxy
     
  7. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    The foam core does not add resistance to the structure. A zone of much wear should be reinforced by solid, hard material, the harder the better. I have always planned stainless steel, Teflon on occasion, for areas where nets or net cables will produce a lot of abrasion. On the other hand, and I'm sorry because I probably will not agree with you, my opinion is that in small boats there are no areas that require the use of sandwich-type laminate.

    I do not know if you are referring to using epoxy with basalt fiber fabrics. I have no idea, that is precisely one of the problems that, I believe, is not well resolved with basalt, the material that conglomerates the various tissues, the chemical reactions that will occur, the environmental conditions in which it should be applied, properties of the final laminate, ..... too many unknowns for me
     
  8. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

     
  9. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

    It totally makes sense..funny thing is if you saw what we have to use these little *** boats for..it's just to hold two nets..if I don't have to have the foam then that's cool..I just wasn't sure as the nets weigh maybe 250#
     
  10. Jim Allen
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    Jim Allen Junior Member

    I have one last request . I'm not even close to using a vacuum infusion. Will the materials in the thread work just as well using convential methods? It is my goal to learn at least some of that method before the close of the year. Thank you again sir ,you have been a trooper for dealing with the learning impaired.
     
  11. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Maybe it was good to reinforce localy the deck, the bulwark, or whatever, with more reinforcements. It would be necessary to see how your boat is and where the weight of the nets will be applied.

    The vacuum infusion allows you to reduce the weight of resin a lot and you get a laminate of more quality, more uniform. The materials are the same as in the lamination by hand.
     
  12. ondarvr
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    Jim, you can hit quote and then type your response in the same box, no need for a separate post when quoting. This makes it easier to follow.

    Disliking a fiber doesn't make it bad, it's just your bias, it doesn't help in designing or choosing the correct materials the boat.

    Upgrading resin helps, the cheapest polyesters fail before the fibers, so upgrading fibers doesn't help when using them.

    Anytime you upgrade the fibers you need to upgrade the resin so it can take advantage of the physical properties of the fiber.

    Carbon typically isn't a good option on a small work boat, while it's light, it can be fragile, and when it fails it tends to be catastrophic and the hull falls apart. Plus the cost is crazy.

    Kevlar can be difficult to work with in open molding sometimes, but can be durable. Harder to repair.

    Fiberglass tends to be cheap, dozens of types, fairly durable, easy to work with, and happens to work well enough for most projects.

    S-glass is an uncommon upgrade, but is used, it's a harder to find and costs more.

    Basalt is still sort of an unknown in many applications, while it may work well, it just doesn't have much of a track record yet, at least in a production environment.

    There is no one "best" fiber, it all depends on what you want the boat to survive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  13. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    1) Yes. Conventional layup techniques work fine.

    2) I cant believe how many people are saying the product isn't proven in production ??? A simple Google search shows a multitude of applications

    " The fields of applications of basalt fibre products are extremely broad, depending on the specific properties of the fibre, including automotive, sporting goods, boat building, wind turbine blades, and civil engineering (Fig. 3).

    In the automotive industry, high-quality basalt rovings, fabrics and chopped strands are used in the production of CNG cylinders, brake pads, mufflers, headliners and other parts for interior applications. The industry’s main requirements are high mechanical properties and easy fibre recycling.

    Due to their high mechanical properties, basalt rovings are highly suitable for the production of different sporting goods, including skis, snowboards, and bicycles.

    In wind-turbine-blade and boat-building applications, basalt rovings are used to produce woven, UD and multiaxial fabrics. Here, the high corrosion resistance and high mechanical properties of basalt play the main role."

    h
    ttp://www.jeccomposites.com/knowledge/international-composites-news/advanced-basalt-fibre-high-tech-applications

    Taking advice from the ignorant is a waste of time.
     
  14. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Here is a detailed study of the properties of Glass / Basalt, where they found that combinations of the two products made a considerable difference to performance.
    eg
    Mechanical Properties of Basalt and Glass Fiber Reinforced Polymer Hybrid Composites (PDF Download Available).
    " Impact tests.
    It was seen that the incorporation of Basalt and Glass fibers in polyester polymer matrix has considerable effect in the impact properties. The impact strength of the composites was higher than that of mono composites, except that 4G/4B/4G and B/G/B/G. 2B/2G/2B hybrid composite having the highest impact resistance than other combinations." ( see table for meaning of codes)


    https://www.researchgate.net/public...ss_Fiber_Reinforced_Polymer_Hybrid_Composites
     

  15. ondarvr
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    ondarvr Senior Member

    My comments are based on having been at most of the largest fabricators of all types of composite products in North America over the last 20 years, not just marine, not one of these customers used basalt fibers. I didn't say it was bad, but for some reason even the shops that had looked into it didn't use it, at least not at that time. The reasons for not using it could easily be based on things not related to its properties.

    I was at the China Compostes show a couple of months ago and several companies offered it, even the distributor that had the booth I was working in, there still wasn't a huge demand for it.

    I'll be at the CAMX show in Orlando in two weeks, the engineers there will have facts on why it is or isn't used on more projects.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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