Bamboo

Discussion in 'Materials' started by Detailman, Mar 9, 2011.

  1. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    As a kid I used to cut bamboo and create various stuff out of it. I remember it as a very hard, strong, resilient, fibrous wood. And pretty heavy too.
    Kendo martial artists (sword fighters) use them as a substitute for steel swords: http://www.thefind.com/sports/browse-shinai-kendo-bamboo-sword , as it is impact-resistant too.

    Remaining in Japan, Kyudo archers have their longbows made of bamboo laminates, and some argue their longbows were almost as efficient and powerful as famous english longbows. Which again should testify in favour of bamboo's strength and elasticity.

    All these things have made me think that, perhaps a plywood made of bamboo laminate bonded with resorcinol glue (if it adheres well to bamboo wood) could be a good candidate for marine use. Does anyone know if it has been tried and if such a product exists?

    Cheers
     
  2. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Bamboo is great. But, some dutch freinds of mine work(ed) in the Philippines doing their PhD research for a dutch-phili company making furniture. They told me that once you cut bamboo, there are bugs/insects that are attracted to it and eat it. They told me that so far, no one has found a way, safely at least, to prevent this from occuring.

    The Banca's used in the Phili, their outriggers are some 5-10 long lengths of Bamboo tied together, perfect boat building material. But, when they crumble/rotten...so what just cut down and start again.

    So, ok for temp use, but not sure about permanent.
     
  3. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    That's an interesting info.
     
  4. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Indeed.
    I never knew/heard about this..fascinating stuff.
     
  5. daiquiri
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    daiquiri Engineering and Design

  6. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Without peer and independent review, of course MDS and ISO or other certification, clarification or testing documentation and without the apparent willingness to supply any of it, I can't honestly say I'd trust anything from this portion of the world. This same area of the world flooded the plywood market with BS 1088 stamped panels that delaminated just at the mentioning of moisture, this area is very well known for supply incredibly low priced, supposedly similar quality products, just to find they short cutted something somewhere. Again, without the appropriate and appreciable documentation, I can't recommend it for anything other then aunt Millie's kitchen floor.
     
  8. welder/fitter
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    welder/fitter Senior Member

    I, fortunately, have an "expert" sitting beside me, as I read this thread. All sentences, henceforth, should be preceded by the words, "My wife says".

    A bamboo nipa hut - little bamboo house - will be worthless in 3 to 5 years, unless varnished/revarnished a couple of times per year. The bamboo amas on our bankas only lasted a couple of years before waterlogged & rotting. The inner core of bamboo turns to pulp long before the outer skin shows issues.


    Would the bamboo in The Philippines work for boatbuilding and/or interior joinery? Personally, I don't have that much faith in it, but if someone else wants to attempt it, I'd consider supplying the bamboo for the project(didn't ask my wife about this one!) & space, if needed. I'll be having a nipa hut built at one end of our beach for my own "hang-out". I expect I'll have to replace it every so often, but so what? For less than $1,500usd pre-fabbed it's not a huge loss. Philippines used to have a hardwood "nara"(?) that is much like ironwood - probably is - but has become rare & expensive. I thought that the big issue with bamboo was the wood-eating bugs, but my wife says that the bamboo wicks water.
     
  9. sailingharry
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    sailingharry Junior Member

    I understand the reluctance to use a new product, especially one with no available data. That's the very issue I'm having myself.

    I did a little more digging, and found that Alden Yachts ships their Breton Reef 40 with a bamboo cabin sole. While they are probably not using a Home Depot material, I am also pretty sure they aren't manufacturing the material themselves! It sure would be nice to know what they are using, and where they get it.

    The article is here:
    http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/article/Alden-Yachts-Brenton-Reef-40
    and the reference to the cabin sole is the 3rd to last paragraph.

    Harry
     
  10. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Bamboo is a very strong material. Not very durable in its natural state after cutting as it's full of sugars giving food to fungus and insects.
    The sugar has to be removed by letting it in water during a good time. After it can be treated by CCA, or borates or others. There are different methods (by pressure, solvent or immersion). The traditional Japanese method is to smoke it until it's almost black. Smelly but that works.

    Unhappily bamboo is not suitable for structural marine use but a good bamboo laminated floor will work in a boat if made with the good glues and treated.

    For the use in nipas and palapas there is a cheap and effective treatment with borates. The borate treatment asks for a simple equipment and a bit of patience.
     
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  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    This is the main issue we have with this stuff, the lack of credible product testing and certification. Will the adhesive pass a type 1 boil test? What does Lloyd's think of this stuff . . . I can't see any product manufacture, turning down an obvious market nitch, if they didn't already know the product wouldn't hold up. This would go a long way toward explaining why the suppliers are quickly saying no, to marine environment requires or suggestions.
     
  12. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    This is so so true with many "wonder" materials.

    There shall be zero credibility within the commercial field, for usage, of any product not just bamboo, until it passes rigorous testing and obtains a credible independent certification
     
  13. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The biggest issue I have is the lack of interest in this area of pursuit. You would think all they need to do is mash up some bamboo, vibrate the strands into parallel orientation then add a WBP adhesive or suspend it in a resin like polyester, vinylester or epoxy. I would think a few layers, with fiber direction to the favor of the panel, could also be done. Wouldn't a manufacture jump at the prospect of supplying a plywood substitute at a fraction of the cost? Or is it that constructed this way, the combination resin/adhesive and fiber ratio doesn't make a very strong panel, in spite of the general physical possibilities of bamboo, as the base material. In other words, I think we have a resin/adhesive rich product, which doesn't lend well to light, stiff products with this particular base.
     
  14. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Yes Ad Hoc, it'a a common issue of the wonder materials, but for the case of bamboo floors it would be relatively simple as these floors are purely decorative and have not structural purpose. A super carpet for inside decoration, not exposed to weather. So just a waterproof glue and a good treatment are needed. These floors are very resistant to passage wear and may be beautiful.

    Par, the common structural defect of all sawdust and fiber panels is too much glue and not enough wood fiber...

    The fabrication of bamboo floors asks for a a lot of work, as the bamboo is split in strips , squared and planed, matched and finally glued. There is a lot of sites in Internet describing the process.

    It's out of subject but I love so much bamboo and its applications that I can't resist to give a short information:

    Bamboo (it's a grass) grows to a commercial size in about 5 years (the fastest trees in 25-30 years). On a Guadua bamboo plantation you can harvest between 1000 to 3000 25 feet/4 to 6 inches diameter poles on a acre every year...so it becomes an interesting material for house building.

    Colombia has a long tradition of bamboo/cement building. The simple houses are cheap (5000 USD a 80 sq meter house) and seismic resistant until scale 7.
    Some modern upper class Colombian (not cheap, but not so expensive) houses in bamboo and cement.
    http://www.zuarq.blogspot.com/

    A Nepalese page
    http://purwanchalbamboo.blogspot.com/2011/01/bamboo-engineered-housing.html

    Bamboo is very strong in its natural state; a pipe reinforced with nods and having an extraordinary strong and hard final layer. This layer gives all the resistance of a bamboo. The inside fiber is not particularly strong. That gives a pipe material with an excellent ratio weight/strength in compression and flexion.

    Just a pic to illustrate the possibilities...not a five years hut...and compare the size of the poles with a similar structure in steel tubing...
     

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  15. rxcomposite
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    rxcomposite Senior Member

    I have used bamboo on several indigenous (local) crafts, but when it comes to choosing the specie, it is the local boat guys to trust. They know what kind of bamboo to choose for the outrigger and the amas. Right. not one fits all.

    Once they cut the bamboo, they dont let it touch the ground. The soft inner fibers are like marsmallow to the insects. The bow shape outrigger is bent using low heat source. Rags soak in diesel and use the soot generated to further insulate the bamboo from heat. After it has taken shape, they scrape off the green skin and let it dry in the sun.

    For bamboo flooring, they split the bamboo into 1" strips, scrape the green skin and the soft mushy inner fibers. As long as it is wet, it lasts, so boat owner are known to bathe the boats with water whenever it is sitting more than a day in the sun.

    Why bamboo? Because it is cheap or nearly free. Rattan and bamboo are the first to be cut whenever there is a logging operation. And when it is time to replace the bamboo, all the fisherman needs to do is hike to the backyard forest and cut a length for his need.

    It is different when the rivers or lakes is near the city. Bamboo is hard to find so timber or PVC pipes are used.
     
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