bamboo planks

Discussion in 'Materials' started by adriano, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. rasorinc
    Joined: Nov 2007
    Posts: 1,854
    Likes: 70, Points: 48, Legacy Rep: 896
    Location: OREGON

    rasorinc Senior Member

    I tried to get info on the adhesive used from several suppliers of solid bamboo planks(no ply-just like a cutting board) without success. Nobody could tell me anything so I threw that idea out the window.
     
  2. Invert
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 7
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Rhode Island

    Invert Junior Member

    Well, that clears my concerns. I just wanted to know if it was a good idea or not. General consensus: Not a good idea.

    Thanks!

    (now I know why they use teak)
     
  3. Dop Bar
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Indonesia

    Dop Bar Boat Builder and Designer

    Bamboo lamination

    Adriano,

    I just happened on your discourse on this topic. It so happens that I have done some experiments with bamboo laminates. How far have you progressed (if any) with bamboo lamination?
     
  4. michel64
    Joined: Oct 2012
    Posts: 1
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: france

    michel64 New Member

    Bamboo lamination

    I dont do allready but i'll go to try soon..for my new used boat.
    The main problem in 2013 that the bamboo price goes up and up equal wood.
    Go cut bamboo, dry them, cut, planed, resaw, laminate with époxy ..
    not so cheap at the end.
    About to know if it's a good idear, bamboo laminate époxy Bow are perfect
    the main producer of époxy is on it since more than 10 year's

    Michel
     
  5. adriano
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 101
    Likes: 3, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 47
    Location: italy

    adriano Senior Member

    Hi,
    Actually my intention was to use bamboo solid strips approx. 1 cm.X 1,5 cm
    for epoxy strip planking.No problem with costing at all but the problem was first the weight (pretty heavy) second I could get delivered max mt. 0.50-0.60 length so under these circumstances the use of bamboo didn't make any sense. Nevertheless I would be interested to know whether there are anyother way to use bamboo/epoxy to build mainly canoes. My idea was to use bamboo woven mats (maybe even woven directly on half canoe male mold?) but do not know whether the epoxy glue weight will be too much?!. I would very much appreciate to know how you manage the lamination, how many layers= weight? using thin strips (1 mm.X 10 mm.?) and maybe0.5 meter long? Thanks
    Adriano
     
  6. Dop Bar
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Indonesia

    Dop Bar Boat Builder and Designer

    Bamboo lamination

    Hi Michel64,
    I don't know where you live and what the price of bamboo is there. Where I live in West Java, bamboo is relatively cheap and considered much more eco-friendly than wood. Also, it is a known fact that bamboo fibers are stronger, weight for weight than steel. From a medium sized length of bamboo (dia. 8 cm x useful length 4 m), I can get 6 strips of 5 x 3 mm, planed. With the labor, one strip costs me about Rp 4000. That would make it about Rp20.000 / m2. Compare that to Meranti veneer which costs Rp 200.000/m2 The US Dollar at the time of writing is about Rp 10.000.
    Indeed bamboo lacks cross grain strength, but that doesn't matter. Fiberglass also doesn't have any cross grain strength, but set in epoxy it doesn't matter.
    My experiment are 2 sets of beautifully curved 5 x 5 cm laminated bamboo crossbeams for a 7 m outrigger prahu. After the launch I report on the behaviour of my laminated bamboo crossbeams. But it is my dream to produce triple diagonal laminated bamboo fishing boats.
     
  7. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 471, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You're making some incorrect assumptions there Dop Bar. Bamboo has been looked at by several companies and industry professionals.

    The butt kicker for those thinking it's stronger than steel is the compression and tension tests, sited by bamboo fans use internode sections, where the stalk is strongest. If you include the node portion of the stalk, the compression and tension values drop dramatically. Second, it's important to compare apples to apples. These calculations are based on weight and use solid samples of steel, but hollow, circular sections for bamboo, which just not a fair comparison. If you get fair about things, then bamboo still fairs well, but it's more like 1:1, not 11:1.

    Lastly, there are a bunch of bamboo species, some are strong, others stiff, others not much better then a stalk of straw. Bamboo does well in low load, short length applications, like fence posts and furniture. In order to get long length performance, it needs to be processed (manufactured) into a different product, which makes it no longer bamboo and also expensive. Compared to other choices, it doesn't stand as well as most fans of this material suggest. Cost, weight and length limitations on pure raw stock and weight and cost concerns on processed bamboo products are the usual limiting factors, and why it's not seen much in the industry except and appropriately enough as trim, flooring and decorative veneer.
     
  8. Dop Bar
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 3
    Likes: 0, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: Indonesia

    Dop Bar Boat Builder and Designer

    PAR,
    You have a valid point, that the nodes sections in strips of bamboo are weak(er) points. In my crossbeam laminations, where the node sections are randomly interspersed with the inter-node sections of the bamboo strips, the lack of tensile strength of the nodes is compensated by the adjacent internode sections.
    Depending on the diameter of the bamboo stalk, the bamboo can be split into 3 or 4 sections. The skin is not used for obvious reasons (although it is the strongest, it doesn't glue worth sh*t). The inner-most part is discarded as well. The use of epoxy glue is higher than with wood veneer because the bamboo strips, although planed, are not entirely smooth and contain some longitudinal cracks.
    Hundreds of thousands of square meters of (thin, 1 mm) bamboo strips are woven into 2 x 2 m mats in this country as material for house walls. When I used these thin strips to laminate, the results were disapointing. I have since used 3 mm thick strips (finished) with excelent results. Enough cross diagonal layaers of bamboo veneer will in my opinion make a very tough boat hull.
     
  9. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
    Posts: 19,133
    Likes: 471, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3967
    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    And a very heavy one compared to other choices. Again, as an engineered product, it has some limited uses, but the cost will be high, because the demand is low, for say bamboo composite panels or bamboo plywood and you'll still have the weight issue, which most designs attempt to avoid with considerable effort. I saw a rather sizable viking long boat, made from popsicle stocks a few years back, but it does mean it was a very suitable way to build a boat, even though you could. You could build a molded boat with short internode sections of bamboo, but why put yourself through this kind of pain, if you can get other materials, cheaper, in longer lengths, that can make your job easier, less costly and offer a lighter end product.
     
  10. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 146, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    So if I understand all this, bamboo is relatively cheap where it grows and apparently costly or poor quality everywhere else. It can be converted into plank form but there seems little point in doing so as there is no advantage over regular boat-building woods in strength-to-weight ratio, cost, durability, availability or any of the other things important to a boat builder.

    The more I think about the stuff the more logical it seems to just make it into a raft, probably fastened with bindings. Which is pretty much most of what I found, crude rafts hailed as important parts of the Green revolution, and as irrelevant as you'd expect.

    That being the case the best thing seems to be to leave the stuff where it is and let the local boat-builders figure out how best to use it. Which of course, they did long ago.

    As you might expect, the boats built where it grows are in many cases beautiful and seaworthy. I was particularly taken with the canoe made with woven bamboo: the technique of building a canoe from this material looks remarkably similar to the North American aboriginal technique of building a canoe from birch bark.

    They are, however completely pointless for a Western world builder; we don't have the material, the skills or the need. But we can still celebrate Man's ingenuity which seems without limit -

    http://www.boatsandrice.com/wovenBamboo.html

    http://www.google.ca/search?q=bamboo+boats&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-ContextMenu&rlz=1I7RNSN_en&biw=1016&bih=673&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=kOGeUYf9GK-84AOPlYHgCA&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQsAQ
     
  11. adriano
    Joined: Aug 2009
    Posts: 101
    Likes: 3, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 47
    Location: italy

    adriano Senior Member

    Definitely such bamboo boats would have to be built in those countries where both bamboo and weavers are abundant! Not in USA or Europe!
    My strong opinion is to use bamboo strips approx. 5 mm.width from only outer skin and triple woven. Before doing this you will have to find out a reasonable method how to remove the natural coating from the bamboo skin!Then epoxy resin would make sense?!
    Dop Bar have you ever tried this?
    Rgds
    Adriano:)
     
  12. Ilan Voyager
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 1,188
    Likes: 101, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 758
    Location: Cancun Mexico

    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    I do agree heartily. Many thanks for the very interesting link about the Vietnamese traditional boats. As a former naval carpenter I'm fascinated by the know how and ingenuity of the carpenters and boatbuilders around the world.

    Not totally out of subject...For those interested by true craftmanship and birch canoes. Same material issues like bamboo: cheap on site, unsuitable for us.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRFCxxAKafc
    CÉSAR ET SON CANOT D'ÉCORCE

    Don't be afraid by the French title, there is no blah blah to understand, just admire the ability and intelligence in the use of local resources, with very few tools.

    Another interesting link about traditional boats:
    http://www.indigenousboats.blogspot.mx/
    Look at the method of building the Samoan Va'a alo in integral structure sewn planks.
     
  13. MindanaoTech
    Joined: Nov 2018
    Posts: 22
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Nevada

    MindanaoTech Junior Member

    Bamboo will be “king”. I’m not referring to environmentally compatible dissolving of bamboo in strong base solution as part is made and then spinning/weaving of the fibers into a structural cloth...that may come later based upon the dominance of the “cost” factor. I am predicting the dethroning of Spindrift 2 / Banque Poplare as the “worlds largest trimaran”.
    In the very near future (planned Transpacic Voyage:July/August 2019) my team will be constructing a 50+ meter sailing trimaran out of 99+% w/w in bamboo (dominant species- dendroclamus asper). As the “glue” will be more or less 85% bamboo “tar” and the preservative a “liquid smoke” version of traditional Japanese “bamboo preservation” using the lighter distillate of the “tar” production (approximately 2 tons). 15% or so epoxy will be added to the tar, mainly to lock in the tar and allow painting, as bamboo over 40,000 bamboo “nails” set in epoxy will mechanically fasten the super yacht.
    I don’t intend to compete for the Jules Verne trophy so the rigging might not cost as much as the hull (350,000 Philippine Piso). I’m thinking of this 1mm woven bamboo stuff mentioned above tied with heavy monofilament to some (six to eight) one piece unstayed, canted, bamboo masts 50-60 feet long, set in movable tripods transverse/ inline/ asymmetrically diagonal, wherever functioning the best according to the apparent wind at that time, lashed to the cross arms,floats, deck...wherever, bamboo is versatile as such.
    The main hull and deck will all be constructed (without a mold nor internal framing) double walled 3/4” around a laminated in place bamboo “net”, mesh size 10 inches, thickness 5” inches, web width 1 1/4 inch. At this spacing, this gives a 5” SOLID honeycomb core at 9-10 lbs/cubic foot that WILL hold nails! Including the inside and outside 9/16”(average) strip planking (skin removed and nodes smoothed a little insides scraped with machete and inset 1/8” onto the basket/web/hull (glued and nailed) about 7 1/2lbs per square foot or 22 tons total. Quality bamboo is sold in 80+ foot lengths for less than $20/ton in my neighborhood (used to make charcoal).
    This is mainly addressed to Adriano, but any and all “professional” comments will be entertained...just be prepared to eat them come Sept 2019.
     
  14. fallguy
    Joined: Dec 2016
    Posts: 2,088
    Likes: 131, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 10
    Location: usa

    fallguy Senior Member

    How are you dealing with the variability of strength within a single piece? i.e. what or how is the core built
     

  15. MindanaoTech
    Joined: Nov 2018
    Posts: 22
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Nevada

    MindanaoTech Junior Member

    Overbuilt. The “net” or “honeycomb core” is basically a five inch thick permanent frame for the strip planking. Only 1/2 of this frame is made up from full length strips taken from the middle section of a full cane (the most uniform section). These full strips, 10 to 25 feet long, 1/2” by 1 1/4” will be hand planed (large tolerance) and “knitted” +/- 55-60 degrees from keel and sheers. The other half will be short 8 3/4” fillers (no nodes, 24-36 per internode) glued and nailed(doweled) in the gaps between the layers (ten) of alternating full strips, idea similar to Dop Bar’s. As this is all eventually internal no exceptional carpentry is involved here. Strips will be made utilizing machetes and hand planes...the glue is NOT expensive and prevented from “creep” by lots of strong skinny dowels. Moisture variation will be nil and stay nil do the lavish use of “organic tar” (lol), and they are set only 60 degrees from each other not 90 so that even minimized expansion will be halved. The basically zero degree strip planks (double walled against the “net frame” will retain their impressive tensile strength due to leaving the slight curvature as is and not removing much more than the siliconized skin (all native craft using the natural form bamboo do this) leaving the strong fibers significantly intact albeit “wavy”. Wetted surface increase is negligible, and it might(yes,I am not counting on this) benefit laminar flow attachment, both the curvature between strips and the slight bumps at the node. The inner strips may utilize slightly wider and thicker strips.Thats another way of getting the most out of the material, just build around the variations, and utilize bamboo’s unique characteristics. I’m in agreement with just about everything posted here in this thread, even Apex1.I won’t beat around the bush, I am going to use creosote and tar pitch, and expect only 5 years of true seaworthiness out of this vessel, one TransPacific crossing and maybe 1/2 dozen trips back and forth Hawaii/California. Only because it won’t be worth it to pull it out of the water and maintain it properly, and even if I could afford to epoxy/glass the whole thing I wouldn’t do it because it is just more practical to drill out the dowels, split the laminations apart and reassemble it back into garden fences or something. Maybe sell it off as floating timeshare apartments (of coarse I can’t rent it lol) sans sails. To answer your question specifically- #1) slightly overbuild, 35 tons weight,100 tons displacement(things look much brighter for bamboo above the waterline- no tar no creosote, boron instead, and full canes predominately utilized).#2 ignore them to a large extant and rely on filler. #3 adapt where possible trading off aesthetics for increased labor and basically eliminating material cost compared to a “modern boat”. At $70/ton overall there is quite a bit of leeway.
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.