Automated Initial Ship Design - pipeline: Excel, AutoCad, Rhinoceros, Maxsurf...

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by sinmania, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Thank you I found a way but it is manual.. To divide the new x on the old drawn 1:1 and find the scale factor. Then for measures, just by traditional way of crossing x with streight line to the curve and finding the value to y then matching the closest y reaturn back to curve and to newly x, and then take value from the table for the new x, and written it in y of the acad... :) Thanks guys.. For future graphs... Problem still stays if I need to make grid with equal spaced a lot values, which are not in curve, maybe I need an interpolation procedure made by excel by equal spaces, and puting them in acad....
     
  2. quequen
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    quequen Senior Member

    sinmania, why not using lisp or vbasic to read directly from an excell or .txt file? it's not so difficult. There may be many alternatives in the net, here you'll find one:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/de...ofile-generator-autocad-36485.html#post438751

    Another manual technique that I use is copying and pasting coordinates from excell directly into an autocad polyline command on course. It's very fast, but handmade.
    And of course you could use a parametric software, Grasshopper is a wonderful option for Rhino.

    -
     
  3. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Yes maybe I already had help for such topics Acad-Excel - http://www.cadtutor.net/forum/showth...nd-dist-t-line. Thanks to LeeMac for solving my problems with Lisp..

    Maybe best will be interactivity between both programs... Also I found free program like nanocad.. supports vbsic maybe will think in that way but will see, because if I go for Phyton - it will be very timecostly and not so versitile to try to constrain different forms by building in a program. Still the best way will be to draw drawing based on cell -variables, then interactivly to change the shape depending on the cell controlers calculated by formula, and reatriving new hull form... maybe it can extend to make general arangement if follows the rules, and to ask the user of the possible choises ok here, here or here we can put this based on the restrictions this and that...
     
  4. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    sinmania, I do not know if this can help but I have great experience in programming in VB for AutoCAD. I have made applications that perform all calculations of naval architecture, using the designs made ​​in AutoCAD. Exchange data and information between AutoCAD, Excel, MS Word, etc..
    Lisp is more cumbersome than VB that for these cases, is very agile.
    The object oriented programming enables communication, very fluid, among all applications.
    If you need anything from me, I am at your disposal
     
  5. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Great tips, quequen, I am already using the handmade version of cooping coordinates. Grasshopper is a wonderful option for Rhino yes but uses Rhino, which is payed not free. Maybe I will go for Blender, or other 3d Cad free software...


    Thank you very much for your support. Оk now I am thinking of free versions of CAD softwares, and Excel... so anybody can use.. in the learning process.
    Like http://nanocad.com/
    http://www.kingsoftstore.com/office/free-excel

    I was thinking to write it on Phyton. And then I realised it is better to be on cad program so you can continue the process and use the program features..but still in nanocad I think they use LISP, and C++.

    So basic concept stays for - Automated ship design..
    1. Get data from cells, which are calculated by formulas given from requrements of register (there will be different sheets of formulas for different type of ship for example multipurpose, bulk, yacht etc.., and also different categories of formulas with arangements, for bulbos, normal bow etc..) (this I will do in form of research and put different formulas in cells of calculating the specifics of ship with one cell explanation of the formula one cell actual formua and another with the result) The cells accepted values input data ranges must have some limits depending on rules....
    2. Take the cells results and draw the lines and splines for lines plan, General arangement find hydrostatics form lines plan.. So there must be a proper formating that formats the cells in form of acceptable fromat from Nanocad for example line x, y; spline x,y in excel I used CONCATENATE (text1,text2,...) to make it.
    3. For returning back there is need of tool which takes interpolated x,y coordinates at particular position of the spline for horizontal or vertical line, and writing the values back into free excel software for further calulation of limiting sections etc... tool similar to this http://www.cadtutor.net/forum/showt...ne-intersection-s-of-2-curves-and-dist-t-line that LeeMac made me..


    So conection between nanocad - free excel soft and back for now.. So I can start writing formulas from register...
    Later it can pass trough opensourse cfd or fem software, for iterations and improving the desin... But for starters is this, later it can expand a lot! Thanks!

    The idea is to be free, open and iterative, so everybody can develop it to learn ships geometry and formula connections with changing different numbers in formulas so to see imediatly the end results and use...
     
  6. GersonPerezbr
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    GersonPerezbr Junior Member

    Why ?

    Why this tread has stopped ? this is the most interesting thread in the whole board :D i'm a new boat designer, and i like your ideas, keep posting your progress :mad:
     
  7. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    GersonPerezbr, can you think of any idea about it?. Any specific question?
     
  8. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

  9. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I can not clearly read the text of your image. Could you upload a file in some other format, pdf or similar?
     
  10. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Please click twice on the picture it will get cleaner. Purpose is to make this flow but with free software like openfoam... Also it can be made plugin that connects all commercial .. End result should be remote control with parametric sliders, that one can decrease power consumption, other can increase speed and cost.. etc.. so you can see the shape changing and optimizing. See also here: http://www.cd-adapco.com/sites/default/files/Presentation/Marine3_SIREHNA@DCNSResearch_LB.pdf
     
  11. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    So the first task will be to make interactive optimisation hull software on python.

    It should take initial hull on .iges.
    User can specify constrains for example the with two lines where is cylindrical part of ship or which part shouldn't be optimised, and optimise for the bow and stern parts.

    The software will optimise for minimum resistance, maximum speed and low cost.

    It could use free tool for first few potential flow itterations. So in first itteration will start deforming the hull with bigsteps where the most resistance is shown and soft deform propotionally the rest.
    On the second and third will try and compare if the resistance is raised, the step will become smaller and return back the defromation etc. to find the optimum deformable shape.

    After is reached with the potential flow....
    There should be option for placing curve on the hull to manipulate it using Lakenby approach. Also there should be option for Cage editing. (So maybe Rhinocerous) will be used here.. And then two viscous solutions using RANS will take shape for the new used defined shape and the previous optimised by potential flow methods.

    At the end there should be 2 shapes and the user will have two hull forms in Rhino with two viscous results. He will slide the slider between the two maybe using grasshopper. And see the results for resistance rising or lowering: cost, power consumption, speed, and EEDI.
     
  12. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Now I am trying to investigate how to coop Rhino parametric Hull script from Holland: http://rhinocentre.blogspot.com/2009/12/grasshopper-parametric-ship-hull.html with Open Foam, and will try to optimise the form maybe will use Rhino Phyton...

    I will try to continue this script to pass trough potential method, which will modify the hull shape, and get the optimum shape.

    For now there is a problem with that Open Foam works only on linux and I am looking for other free alternative for CFD.. Just to investigate the resistance fast, so to deform and modify the shape... Later with the deformed shape will do 3 passes with deform, compare, deform with fast potential solver. And the last two shapes which I liked could pass trough viscous solver so I can compare the difference, cost, performance, production.

    Does somebody know such free potential code for windows I could try?
    After getting free CFD code.

    IDEA:

    The question will be how to connect them (the outputs of CFD with deformations in Rhino) so taking PressureXYZ vector fields from CFD, putting them in Rhino (in scalar form in table with position of the control point amount of deformation and direction. So using Rhino nudge comands to deform the body. Deforming the hull using the control points, or control curves with soft body deformation. Maybe there will be a high dense cage where is the higesht point in the table and soft deforming proportionally the rest points. There sould be two limiting lines (which user will specify in top view) up to where the deformation can be done, for the cylindrical part. So the curvature should smooth with g2-g3 curvature up to this meeting points of optimised stern, bow with the cylindrical left alone part. At the end there will be optimised hull form for lowest Pressure = Resistance in some constrains (limiting lines for the untouched cylindrical part for example) for current LBD and displacement. With possibility to get linesplan..

    Later time begining shape can be connected with Tables with emperical or statistical formulas from the rules for specific ship.

    If somebody wants to join this quest is more than welcome:)

    Here is an example picutre which will show me where do dig, and where to put material for the deformation of the body: [​IMG]
     
  13. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Lets gather all possible Excel spreed sheets, about naval architecture. I think this interactivity will help for better understanding the subject..
     
  14. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    I wonder why you keep feeding in Autocad 2d into the process, when Rhino can handle that equally as well ?

    Also, Excel is a 2 dimensional, poor performing data source - you would do better with Microsoft Access for hull data. It would be much easier to use with Python, and other languages
     

  15. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Autocad and Rhino are similar but not identical programs. For a designer who not only has to make a 3D model, but many other drawings, Autocad is more complete than Rhino, but the latter is much cheaper.
    Cheap or expensive is a concept that should be analyzed. If I buy Rhino but for some things have to use Autocad, is not the same as if you have just Autocad allowing you not needing Rhino.
    As for Excel and Acces the matter is that both are not comparable or similar. The first is a spreadsheet and the second is a database. Nothing to do one application to another. None of them can be said to be 2D or 3D, is a concept that is not applicable. However, it is normal that the input data for some applications are given in Excel files: they are much more comfortable to read, when the amount of data is not high or what you need is just read/save some data.
     
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