Autodesk Alias Automotive vs Rhinocerous

Discussion in 'Software' started by sinmania, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. sinmania
    Joined: Sep 2012
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Hello all,

    I was wondering did somebody tried Alias Software for design of boats and how can compare Autodesk Automotive for example vs Rhinoceros technically, except the notion of price?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtTNv7e5iYQ


    Have a nice day!
     
  2. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Yes, I have used Alias​​, Rhino, Inventor, 3D Studio Max, and some other programs.
    After reading the two posts you have posted, I see you more concerned with 3D modeling programs that naval architecture.
    Note that, from this beautiful model that you want to do, for naval architecture calculations only serves you the volume of the hull below the deck. All those beautiful things that the modeling program allows you to will not give buoyancy to the ship nor increase her stability. Therefore, for the naval architecture project, do not use anymore. If you want to sell really nice drawings I would recommend Alias ​​or 3D Studio. If you want to make floating projects, I would recommend, for example, Rhinos + Maxsurf. Naval Architect, of course, needs to sell his project and including 3D modeling will help much, but what really sells is a floating boat that sails well and meets the expectations of its owner.
    Alias ​​costs a little more than Maxsurf + Hydromax
    Rhinos costs far less than Maxsurf.
    In my experience, for a simple boat, say a 25 m fishing, building model fails to be 7% of the total project. It is therefore absurd to use to create the model, a program that costs more than the calculator itself.
    Alias ​​is much better than Rhinos, but can not be used to make boats.
    Because the models are very difficult to make in Maxsurf, it is quite normal to perform them with Rhinos and, from Maxsurf, import its surfaces. This is a reasonable and cheap combination than with Alias ​​can not be achieved.
    [We should ask Formation (Maxasurf distributor) financial assistance to buy Rhinos]
     
  3. DCockey
    Joined: Oct 2009
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    DCockey Senior Member

    I'm curious why you have found Alias to be "much better" than Rhino?

    I'm relatively experienced with Rhino 4 and Rhino 5, and also have a copy of Alias Design 2012. From what I've seen Alias Design 2012 has generally slightly less capability than Rhino 4 or 5, though my understanding is other versions of Alias should have equal capability.
     
  4. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Yes TANSL this was purely design based question and I guess you find my secret passion for design;))). In my learning path I'm fixing my knowledge in different directions, so please don't mind my diversity of questions. I'm trying to fix my doubts for different software's, because I have used Rhino and Maxsurf with the importing future of surfaces .iges and it fitted well for boat design and for calculations. But before my engineering school I was doing 3d visualization and I saw capabilities of Alias, so I was wondering why they don't use it as a Nurbs modeler and prefer Rhinoceros except the money (I think because it is "more easy").

    I saw that it has more capabilities for surface inspection and they use it for car design similar to CATIA, so basically why don't we use it for superstructure and complicated (organic) surface design, it is time the ships to became more good visually this it will improve the flow also. I don't understand the thinking why engineers are not suppose to make "nice" design?

    "Because the models are very difficult to make in Maxsurf, it is quite normal to perform them with Rhinos and, from Maxsurf, import its surfaces. This is a reasonable and cheap combination than with Alias ​​can not be achieved." - if you remove the money... Why Alias cannot be used to make boats then go to Maxsurf - it can export iges replacing Rhino?
     
  5. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    sinmania: Sorry I expressed myself badly. Of course Alias can be used to export ​​files to Maxsurf. If we forget the price, Alias is better than Rhinos. But again, you (me) can't use a program so expensive for hecer only 7% of the total project.
    I have already left Rhinos and Alias​​. As you know, it is normal to use AutoCAD to make plans for a project. So I make the hull and deck surfaces with AutoCAD, genere .igs (better than .iges) files and import them into Maxsurf. This is a combination that allows me to not spend an euro in molded-only programs. When I need a very nice model of the boat, which, given my line of work, do not happens very often, I bought it from an expert in Rhinos. This expert starts working with the 3D body plan that I have generated with AutoCAD.

    David: My review of Alias ​​and Rhinos is entirely subjective. It is based on my experience, and my inability to work with anything. So, for me, is much more powerful Alias ​​that Rhinos. But it does not matter because, as I said several times, to draft boats (not to make pretty pictures) Rhinos I think is much more useful than Alias​​
     
  6. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    TANSL - Thank you for the answer!
    I get the beginning of your workflow Acad, Rhino, Maxsurf, Hydromax I think it is common in ships, this was what we used in our masters.
    Can I ask you after what software's do you use for the other 93% do you use Shipconstror for detailed project if it is not a secret of course;)? Basiclly what is your workflow for boat project?

    As far as I know for "nice pictures" people use Maya or 3ds Max, Sketchup etc. with their integrated polygonal or NURBS modeling, and Alias is more product engineering design for real stuff but it is more complicated and not so user friendly. I saw tutorials of car Audi A5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aInmQcfwOzg because for one nice surface you need to play a lot with advanced tools for investigating surfaces ( tangents etc....) so I see it is rarely used even in ship's maybe in car industry is more.

    T-splines of Rhino is the rather nice alternative. I had problem when trying to preserve detail and export to Maxsurf, which later on influenced the calculations.
     
  7. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    sinmania: my main problem has always been the lack of money. In my professional life I have had to compete with technical offices that had the best programs for CAD / CAM in shipbuilding. So I had no choice but to go to the cheapest solutions. Given my love of programming (very basic programming knowledge) have developed programs that allow me to address many aspects of basic engineering and development needed in shipbuilding industry. I saw what was on the market and tried to use it. Thus, for example, I have not bothered to develop a new system for drawing, but, knowing that already existed AutoCAD, have used their power for my own benefit
    Going specifically to your question:
    - Starting with traditional 2D body plan I generate the 3D body plan with AutoCAD, helped with some subroutines in VB6, developed by me.
    - Gender hull and deck surfaces with AutoCAD.
    - I export files. Igs to Maxsurf.
    - Maxsurf and Hydromax allow me all naval architecture calculations.
    - I have a program developed by myself that let me, from AutoCAD drawings, generate all the necessary information to build the large steel blocks. I mean definition of parts and profiles, information for elaborating profiles, nesting parts on plates, CNC cutting, assembling information for large sets and subsets, information on weights, centers of gravity, weld length, etc.. etc.
    - (In debugging phase) own program for piping isometric generation.

    NOTE : I have my own software for naval architecture calculations, based on AutoCAD. I use it to solve the most difficult problems but the Spanish administartion does not accept the projects developed with my application. So I need to use Maxsurf. But this is another story.

    You can not imagine, or may be yes, what can be achieved through AutoCAD, if you use it as a CAD / CAM tool, not as a simple paint program. There is a naval técnical office, Dutch, who has done great things in this field.
    Many programs developed for the automotive industry are too powerful and expensive for the shipping industry that, GENERALLY, use less aggressive forms.
    Large shipyards can invest in this type of software. The challenge is to get for small yards or for professionals, cheap tools that allow them to do what they need and NOTHING MORE.
     
  8. Windvang
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Windvang Yacht Designer

    With the Orca3d plug-in you can perform hydrostatic calculations directly in Rhino, avoiding export-import problems. It can also keep track of weight distribution and provide performance calculations.
     
  9. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    With Rhino you can calculate hydrostatics, I'm not going to say No, BUT, what about the many other calculations a project of a vessel needs?
    You can not imply that Rhino serves to design boats because it is not correct. It is likely that some calculation, in some kind of ship can be done. BUT a Naval Architect can not trust that Rhino troubleshoot the generality of its projects can pose.
     
  10. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    Thank you all for responses..

    TANSL - Thank you for the wonderful posts full with quality information...
    I need to make CAD CAM work on Autocad not pictures as you said;-) That's why I will do this project at my free time...to fix my AutoCad knowledge.I will use Rhino for 3d modeling because is easier for me than 3d in Autocad (I don't know if it developed trough last years but I find 3d modelling in Rhino really easy)..
     
  11. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    sinmania,
    As I said in another place, I have developed several applications for naval architecture, on VB6 and based on AutoCAD. That allowed me to, perhaps, know this program a little more in depth. If you think I can help you in your quest, I will be happy to do so.
    B.R.
     
  12. sinmania
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    sinmania Junior Member

    TANSL - I will be glad to receive your help!

    Just keep in mind that I am making studies and master thesis so I won't post so often...

    Greatings!
     

  13. alidesigner
    Joined: Nov 2006
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    alidesigner Senior Member

    If you want to design a metal boat you should be aware that alias can not develop the panels, rhino can.
     
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